Planetside 2 Needs Prone

[captainkapautz]

Can we please close this thread and have another one when beta hits and we get to test if prone's okay or not?

Because atm this thread is kind of atrocious.

[ThermalReaper]

Originally Posted by captainkapautz

Can we please close this thread and have another one when beta hits and we get to test if prone's okay or not?

Because atm this thread is kind of atrocious.

You know, you are right. Too bad it gets bumped and revived each time you make a post like this.

[Stardouser]

Originally Posted by captainkapautz

Can we please close this thread and have another one when beta hits and we get to test if prone's okay or not?

Because atm this thread is kind of atrocious.

Seconded. It's a duck season- rabbit season tennis match now. The only argument I really wish to advance any further at this point is a challenge to SOE to let us test it.

[Stew]

Originally Posted by ThermalReaper

This is exactly right. Stew, read this please.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInferno
Also, we know you've pointed out a game where prone works multiple times. We've even said we've seen it. However, does something working in one game make it necessary in another game?

ill say this have nothing to do with others games

Prone is a stand position

Not a game features

stand up
crouch
prone

3 stand

it have nothing to do whith others games it only have to do with the caracter moovement and possibilitys

having the 3 stand position ad to the freedom of choice in How you can have different aproch to many situations

its like saying we will not implement Jump in planetside 2 because its not because jump in others game work thats it should be in planetside 2

rainbowsix series do not have jump

Jump should not be in planetside because people can bunny hump


remooving a feature instead of making it better isnt the way to go it always depend on how it will be implemented and how the mechanics will work


not been able to prone is the equivalent of not be able to jump it lead you to be incapacitate to perform some action thats can be crucial for your survive

for sure the game could work with or whiout it but thats not the point iam all for having more option and more freedoms afterall iam an NC

[Sirisian]

Originally Posted by Malorn

I'd love to see your evidence for that claim.

Just search for BF and COD and Arma in the thread. Most of them are essentially describing they don't want some of the exploitable implementations. When I did my summary post for instance a lot of people were commenting on how they didn't want a diving prone or collision issues. (Feet going through a wall). However, other posts were simply stating "look at BF3 where you can back up into a wall. That would suck in Planetside 2" as an actual argument assuming that implementation.

It's fine to reference other games for what not to do and what to do, but we're seeing people going "if it's implemented, it will be implemented like X game, and that way doesn't work". We've had multiple posts now that referenced games where it did work well and added a lot to the game. I personally bring up BF2142 and the engineer class because the use of prone with the shield is something you don't see in any other game when it comes to player tactics. We're seeing part of it already in Planetside 2 where players are throwing down the mana turret for defense against players and utilizing the shield to protect themselves. Prone basically opens up a huge amount of gameplay tactics especially when dodging enemy fire. Something as simple as crouching behind a wall and realize you're getting shot and switching to prone to get out of the way gives players that added level of choice.

I've already seen a few places in the gameplay videos where prone would have been awesome to see. Especially on the flat roofs. Places where the natural cover isn't there and getting low would be a valid tactical advantage for players. That and the outdoor combat we saw already in the game in the rocks. (I have to assume most people are imagining all infantry combat will be in the bases. That wasn't the case in Planetside 1, and we'll see that during beta when the restrictions we saw at E3 are lifted).

Then we have these kind of posts which ignore the implementation all together in Planetside 2 and instead decide that Prone can't work in other games, so it can't work in Planetside 2:

Originally Posted by Gandhi

It just doesn't belong in a game like this. It'd be like adding prone to Tribes.

Also with how Basti just got refuted on every argument he brought up it's pretty clear the people against prone have no legitimate argument other than "We have crouch which will already be exploited to use cover. Players should be running out in the open, not sitting behind cover crouched or laying on the ground. This isn't a tactical game that would benefit from such player choices."

[ThermalReaper]

Originally Posted by Stew

ill say this have nothing to do with others games

Prone is a stand position

Not a game features

stand up
crouch
prone

3 stand

it have nothing to do whith others games it only have to do with the caracter moovement and possibilitys

having the 3 stand position ad to the freedom of choice in How you can have different aproch to many situations

its like saying we will not implement Jump in planetside 2 because its not because jump in others game work thats it should be in planetside 2

rainbowsix series do not have jump

Jump should not be in planetside because people can bunny hump


remooving a feature instead of making it better isnt the way to go it always depend on how it will be implemented and how the mechanics will work


not been able to prone is the equivalent of not be able to jump it lead you to be incapacitate to perform some action thats can be crucial for your survive

for sure the game could work with or whiout it but thats not the point iam all for having more option and more freedoms afterall iam an NC

Rainbow six vegas doesn't have(and it's probably same for the rest of the series) jump because it doesn't even have platforming or barely any obstacles that you need to jump or climb over to progress. Planetside 2 would probably have the latter. Another example is mass effect. Did you need prone in that game? No. Did you need to jump in that game? No.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, you shouldn't really put something because it's in other games. An example of this other than the two above was a Max Payne 3 talkthrough I'd seen recently on youtube. Someone complained that dropping yourself in water automatically returns you in water and that's one thing uncharted 3 had over it. Another one replies that there is barely any water in the game other than that, so there is no point in swimming. You get the picture?

Edit: Also calling "master" Higby a starcraft fanatic is an insult? Watcha mean by that?!

Also, I never mean to insult you or anyone on this. My replies may have looked mean but I mean no harm. I'm just saying, there is no reason for it unless we've played the beta and it's a really needed feature. Zebra camo! Game is ruined without it. End of story.

[Stew]

Originally Posted by Retaliation

Proneponents was a self indulgent pun.


First of all prone is a defensive posture by nature. To attack you have to advance. To advance you have to be able to move at a decent pace. Often crouch is at a borderline useful speed for crouching

that I doubt resident starcraft fanatic Matt Higby let slip by.

first insulting matt will change nothing

second i have to stop it rigth were you begin Prone isnt a defensive position prone is a stand position in the 3 primary position stand up,crouch, prone

you can be in a defense position while in a tower in a stand up position or in a crouch or prone position been on defense do not mean whats stand you will use !

3rd I personally use the prone to use the terrain as a cover in a run and guns playstyle and i play agressive and the prone possition help a lots to use some small object and debris as a cover to reload .. to heal myself .. etc.. the whole prone = camping base defense isnt true

if iam camped in a windows can i be prone ? NO i cant iam i in a defensive position ? yes since iam defending so yeah thats pretty much it

[captainkapautz]

Jesus Stew, just stop posting already, you aren't helping your arguement at all and quite frankly whatever you post is pretty damn hard to read, much less to understand.

[Gandhi]

Originally Posted by Sirisian

Also with how Basti just got refuted on every argument he brought up it's pretty clear the people against prone have no legitimate argument other than "We have crouch which will already be exploited to use cover. Players should be running out in the open, not sitting behind cover crouched or laying on the ground. This isn't a tactical game that would benefit from such player choices."

Nope I for one don't, and I don't see any legitimate reasons for it either. It's purely a game design decision, because you can have a perfectly good system without prone and a perfectly good system with prone. Make that decision early and you can build the rest of the game around it easily enough, including offering sufficient cover for crouched players where cover is intended.

The only fact here is that implementing prone takes time, quite a lot of time. It means several new sets of animations and a whole new branch of collision testing to make sure you don't have peoples legs clipping through walls or rocks or ground. It's not a simple addition, it's a lot of work.

[Retaliation]

Originally Posted by Stew

first insulting matt will change nothing

second i have to stop it rigth were you begin Prone isnt a defensive position prone is a stand position in the 3 primary position stand up,crouch, prone

you can be in a defense position while in a tower in a stand up position or in a crouch or prone position been on defense do not mean whats stand you will use !

3rd I personally use the prone to use the terrain as a cover in a run and guns playstyle and i play agressive and the prone possition help a lots to use some small object and debris as a cover to reload .. to heal myself .. etc.. the whole prone = camping base defense isnt true

if iam camped in a windows can i be prone ? NO i cant iam i in a defensive position ? yes since iam defending so yeah thats pretty much it

First of all if I was insulting Higby for being a Starcraft fanatic, it would look something like "Resident Starcraft and arthritis fanatic Matt Higby".

Second saying prone isn't position intended for defense is like saying giant tortoises make excellent fast attack helicopters.

[Stew]

Originally Posted by Gandhi

Nope I for one don't, and I don't see any legitimate reasons for it either. It's purely a game design decision, because you can have a perfectly good system without prone and a perfectly good system with prone. Make that decision early and you can build the rest of the game around it easily enough, including offering sufficient cover for crouched players where cover is intended.

The only fact here is that implementing prone takes time, quite a lot of time. It means several new sets of animations and a whole new branch of collision testing to make sure you don't have peoples legs clipping through walls or rocks or ground. It's not a simple addition, it's a lot of work.

the legitimate reason for it is having more possibility gameplay wise iam a runer and gunners and front line assault guy and i use prone a lots in order to suceed my multiples assault it help to have situational awareness also help me to resuply heal reload etc.. while always mooving foward

i understand the whole point of prone implementation if its badly implemented i prefer to not have it as well

but if its well done i will greatly apreciate it as a tool for me to get advantage of the terrain and will make my play session a way more tactical and fair having cover who just lets a part of your head uncover and u get kill while reloading because of thats its frustrating for no reason because with prone i could avoid these thing

[maradine]

Originally Posted by Stardouser

Seconded. It's a duck season- rabbit season tennis match now. The only argument I really wish to advance any further at this point is a challenge to SOE to let us test it.

That's all I want to see at this point.

[Khrusky]

Originally Posted by Retaliation

Proneponents was a self indulgent pun.


First of all prone is a defensive posture by nature. To attack you have to advance. To advance you have to be able to move at a decent pace. Often crouch is at a borderline useful speed for crouching, so to keep crouch useful prone has to offer benefits other than moving. Harder to hit and better accuracy are no brainer bonuses. Planetside is also a game of maneuver however, so it has to be able to compete with moving targets (staying still becomes a death sentence).
This is probably why people don't want prone. Since movement is your best defence and TTK is hopefully going to be high enough to react to sudden threats, the target will likely just exploit the prone guy's immobility and kill him.
So for prone to be useful it has to have a reason to be used. Maybe where there's no cover, but engineers have deployable cover. Corner ambushing could be a good one, but there's really no difference between standing there as the whole point is to kill the guy before he can kill you. You would have to make prone players significantly harder to dislodge to make up for the inability to move.

Secondly there's a bit of gaming psychology here. Decent players who camp aren't really an issue. They're camping for a sound strategic reason, but in my experience in RTS, FPS, TPS when you don't know what to do there are two strong impulses. Bumrushing is one, standing still is the other. Since Bumrushing inevitably leads to death, if they don't learn how to attack they'll just sit. Even when no one is attacking. Even when there's an enemy push on the other side of the map. Prone then becomes an obvious choice. If you're not going to move why stand? They're getting an advantage without even putting any thought in it. This is a case of keeping something out of the hands of good players to prevent a stale metagame. It's the same reason why expanding is rewarded so hard in RTS, a fact that I doubt resident starcraft fanatic Matt Higby let slip by.

Oh. Is it a reference I'm not getting?

Are you arguing that prone isn't useful? It seems counter-intuitive but it's what your argument seems to suggest. I will respond as if it is.
Prone is just another trade-off, like they've been going on about on the cert topic. Less mobility for more accuracy and smaller front hit box. Prone can be used very effectively to ensure that they can't be killed too easily while sniping by the people they're trying to snipe. That's just one example. It has simple counters though, so it it just a trade-off rather than a straight advantage. Prone isn't - and shouldn't be considered - useful indoors.

Again, what I said before: if the guy wasn't going to move before, how does the game become staler because instead of standing still he's sitting?

[Sirisian]

Originally Posted by Gandhi

The only fact here is that implementing prone takes time, quite a lot of time. It means several new sets of animations and a whole new branch of collision testing to make sure you don't have peoples legs clipping through walls or rocks or ground. It's not a simple addition, it's a lot of work.

These kind of arguments should really be left out. You aren't qualified, nor familiar with their engine, to judge how easily such things can be implemented. This argument style has also been frowned upon in numerous other threads since it can apply to anything added to the game whether you support it or not.

[Khrusky]

Originally Posted by maradine

That's all I want to see at this point.

Sincere interest:
Do we agree that prone should be in the beta for testing, or is this a contended point also?