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Old 2014-03-28, 02:05 PM   [Ignore Me] #31
NewSith
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Re: A clarification on Crimea


Originally Posted by Sonny View Post
Wow, that escalated quickly. I don't know where I mentioned nuclear bombs, or even that I hated anyone. I don't even hate Putin himself, I certainly wouldnt' support going to war against Russia just because I disagree with him and his advisors!

I'm sorry that you've had bad experiences with people in Planetside 1, but the truth is, from my perspective, that the vast majority of British people (and Americans, half my family is American) do not hate Russia, or Russian people, and do not want a war with them.

Sonny
Hate as in h8, rather than actual hatred. In other words discontent, displeasure, reluctance to accept, etc.

As for nuclear bombs mention, I merely used it to depict why one cannot just say he dislikes one country's government, while stating that he has no problem with people of its country.

US sanctions, for instance will (and do) have effect not only on high-ranking officials, but on mere citizens aswell, if not even more so.
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Old 2014-03-28, 06:07 PM   [Ignore Me] #32
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Re: A clarification on Crimea


Using gaming experience as a basis to claim that people have something against the Russian people seems far fetched to say the least.
Do I agree that many gamers have and still do show uneasiness to play with Russians? Indeed I do. However I have never heard anyone claim that their dislike stemmed from political views. Some misinformed individuals might feel that way about a people that they have never met? Sure. However, you can find irrational people like that everywhere. Edit: Of course I am not Russian so my thoughts on the matter won't have the same weight as yours, Sith.
As a personal example: When I started playing WoW when it first came out I had heard that Spanish players were utterly horrible to play with. Which I found to be no more true than playing with any other, of course they mainly talked spanish. One of my best early ingame experiences involved an extremely friendly Spanish player who went out of his way to make others feel welcome.

Of course a person can claim to dislike a government without also disliking the population as a whole. I dislike the Obama administration and the Putin regime yet I have nothing against either Americans or Russians as a whole. Do I have a political dislike for those that share the same views as the government that I dislike? Sure, I certainly dislike their views.
I have found that I can disagree with the views of someone and dislike their views on certain matters without having anything against them personally.
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Last edited by ChipMHazard; 2014-03-29 at 11:43 AM.
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Old 2014-04-13, 12:39 AM   [Ignore Me] #33
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Re: A clarification on Crimea


Well here we go again, with Russian soldiers (EDIT: OK, let's call them the pro-Russian heavily armed militia as I can't prove for a fact that some of them are Russian) in at least one, if not several Eastern Ukrainian cities. What's the feeling in Russia about this? Are they generally supportive about what Putin and the Russian government doing in Ukraine?

Last edited by Sonny; 2014-04-13 at 03:14 AM.
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Old 2014-04-13, 10:20 AM   [Ignore Me] #34
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Re: A clarification on Crimea


If you intend to incite a meaningful and constructive discussion you shouldn't operate in exaggerations, loaded questions and intentional fallacies. Or do you really want me to believe that you consider barely equipped people who got their arms by blatantly storming a police station with pure numbers, who also got eliminated 2 days after - an actual army personnel?

Please don't bring it down to level where we just throw "agents and saboteurs" accusations at each other. Russians are not idiots. People in Slaviansk, as much as I wish to support their sentiment have gone dangerously close to terrorism. There's a special paragraph in Geneva convention regarding armed rebellion. And Russians understand that, despite constant portrayal of us as vodka-drunk sillies.
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Originally Posted by CutterJohn View Post
Shields.. these are a decent compromise between the console jockeys that want recharging health, and the glorious pc gaming master race that generally doesn't.

Last edited by NewSith; 2014-04-13 at 10:52 AM.
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Old 2014-04-13, 07:22 PM   [Ignore Me] #35
Sonny
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Re: A clarification on Crimea


Originally Posted by NewSith View Post
If you intend to incite a meaningful and constructive discussion you shouldn't operate in exaggerations, loaded questions and intentional fallacies. Or do you really want me to believe that you consider barely equipped people who got their arms by blatantly storming a police station with pure numbers, who also got eliminated 2 days after - an actual army personnel?
OK, apologies if I offended. To be honest I'm pissed off with what's going on in Ukraine because from my perspective I see a country having its sovereignty stripped away by force, heavily assisted by outside actors, so maybe thats why my comments seem charged.

I wasn't aware I was using exaggerations and the intentional fallacies - As far as I understand from news reports, there's no doubt that pro-Russian militia armed with automatic weapons are in at least two cities now, if not more. I already said that I couldn't prove they were Russian soldiers (I edited it before you replied). Maybe you think this view is an exaggeration/fallacy - as far as I understand it, this is fact - but I'm just going on what I understand from the media.

As for the loaded question - yep, I guess I should have separated that question ("Are they generally supportive about what Putin and the Russian government doing in Ukraine?") from the rest, and put it in a new paragraph. But I am genuinely interested to know what the Russian sentiment is towards the government's actions during this recent Ukrainian crisis.

For the record I don't think Russians are vodka-drunk sillies .

Sonny
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Old 2014-04-13, 08:33 PM   [Ignore Me] #36
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Re: A clarification on Crimea


Originally Posted by Sonny View Post
OK, apologies if I offended. To be honest I'm pissed off with what's going on in Ukraine because from my perspective I see a country having its sovereignty stripped away by force, heavily assisted by outside actors, so maybe thats why my comments seem charged.

I wasn't aware I was using exaggerations and the intentional fallacies - As far as I understand from news reports, there's no doubt that pro-Russian militia armed with automatic weapons are in at least two cities now, if not more. I already said that I couldn't prove they were Russian soldiers (I edited it before you replied). Maybe you think this view is an exaggeration/fallacy - as far as I understand it, this is fact - but I'm just going on what I understand from the media.

As for the loaded question - yep, I guess I should have separated that question ("Are they generally supportive about what Putin and the Russian government doing in Ukraine?") from the rest, and put it in a new paragraph. But I am genuinely interested to know what the Russian sentiment is towards the government's actions during this recent Ukrainian crisis.

For the record I don't think Russians are vodka-drunk sillies .

Sonny
To be honest I don't know anymore... The informational static coming out of western and eastern media is so noisy that there's no real way to tell anything truthful right now.

One thing I'm certain of - I do not intend to participate and do not acknowledge any further intervention (as in trying to intervene in any way, even positive) in Ukraine. And since I don't really want to wear any masks here - I do not want it not because I'm the incarnation of humility, but instead because attacking Ukraine would be equal to painting a big red "Fell for it" on our heads. US already blames Russia for every slight unrest there is, and for ages Russia has been branded as: supplying weapons to terrorists, aggressively expanding its territory, world-wide embezzling, suppressing free speech, being racist and (god forbid) torturing, threatening and humiliating gays, according to the Russian rainbow people themselves. So if anything - my personal opinion - if they (whoever they are) wanted to make an enemy out of ordinary Russian citizens, they have succeeded. Response is not caused by Putin's propaganda, but instead by western one and their inability to stop ABUSING freedom of speech.

As for sovereignty stripped by force - explain your point of view please. I don't really want to make any assumptions, because I already have way too many. My best guess is - you refuse to believe that Russian involvment ended with Crimea and all the following events are aftershocks, correct?
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Old 2014-04-14, 02:59 AM   [Ignore Me] #37
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Re: A clarification on Crimea


Originally Posted by NewSith View Post
As for sovereignty stripped by force - explain your point of view please. I don't really want to make any assumptions, because I already have way too many. My best guess is - you refuse to believe that Russian involvment ended with Crimea and all the following events are aftershocks, correct?
Well yes, I think along those lines, but I admit I can't prove that the Russian government is directly involved in the current events.

I think that there is genuinely a large number of people in Eastern Ukraine who are very unhappy with the current government. So I would expect there to be protests. And there have been many - with large numbers of Ukrainian protesters (including police who have switched sides)

But what we are seeing is something different. Several simultaneous, heavily armed assaults in several cities across Eastern Ukraine at the same time? (And they have been heavily armed e.g. Kramatorsk). This doesn't seem like the spontaneous outrage of the people - they were provided with weapons and equipment to do this. These are the people who are stripping away the sovereignty of Ukraine by force - assaulting government and police institutions with assault rifles. This could be due to ex-Berkut or the important officials in the overthrown Yanukovich government (and Yanukovich himself) organising the chaos.

But what about the Russian government? To be honest, I don't have proof to show that any Russian government operatives are also involved in the protests today, so let's leave that point aside. But if the Russian government is really interested in the views of the Ukrainian people, why are they not condemning the violence shown e.g. by the heavily armed protesters above? Why are they not condemning the storming of Ukrainian government offices with Kalashnikovs? They could easily do this, and still support the Ukrainian protesters who are protesting peacefully in many eastern Ukrainian cities. The fact that the Russian government is not doing this suggests to me that they do not mind if there is chaos and unrest in Ukraine.

Also there are the 40,000 Russian troops on the border, and the well-timed threats to increase gas prices for Ukraine, pushing it further into an economic crisis.

As a side note, I agree that lies have come from the Western and Ukrainian media too in recent days, and so it's difficult to know what's really going on sometimes.

I'm sad about the whole situation, as it seems like 25 years of progress fostering Russian-European relations has been suddenly rolled back in a matter of weeks. And I don't really understand it - as far as I'm aware there was no European intention to force Ukraine away from Russia.

And like I said previously, I think that Brits get on well with Russians, and I think they are a kind, decent people. It will be a damn shame if relations between the people of our two countries are messed up long term because of this. I've got no axe to grind with the Russian people, so sorry if anything I've said previously in this thread has offended.

Sonny
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