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Old 2013-03-25, 05:03 PM   [Ignore Me] #1
USAWorker
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Coming out is a good thing


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/16/us...-marriage.html

People that know gay people tend to be less prejudiced against them especially if there are friends or family. This is the main reason the tide has turned against the bigots that want to deny gay people their civil rights. Coming out is usually a good thing and the more people that do it the better. Of course support from straights especially parents is great too. Soon the bigots will be the ones hiding.
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Old 2013-03-25, 05:46 PM   [Ignore Me] #2
MrVicchio
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Re: Coming out is a good thing


Originally Posted by USAWorker View Post
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/16/us...-marriage.html

People that know gay people tend to be less prejudiced against them especially if there are friends or family. This is the main reason the tide has turned against the bigots that want to deny gay people their civil rights. Coming out is usually a good thing and the more people that do it the better. Of course support from straights especially parents is great too. Soon the bigots will be the ones hiding.
What a loaded thread...

What civil rights are they being denied?

I'm personally sick of the "I'm a Gay(insert whatever, American, Cop, Teacher..) drama. Fine, you're gay, here's a cookie now are you a person too?
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Old 2013-03-25, 06:29 PM   [Ignore Me] #3
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Re: Coming out is a good thing


Technically speaking, gays have all the same rights as everyone else. So what they really want is more rights for everyone... even if they are the only ones who will use those particular rights.
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Old 2013-03-25, 06:44 PM   [Ignore Me] #4
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Re: Coming out is a good thing


Originally Posted by Baneblade View Post
Technically speaking, gays have all the same rights as everyone else. So what they really want is more rights for everyone... even if they are the only ones who will use those particular rights.
Yet they deny Liza, Dave and Jerri the right to group marriage...

Such hypocrites.
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Old 2013-03-25, 08:09 PM   [Ignore Me] #5
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Re: Coming out is a good thing


Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
Yet they deny Liza, Dave and Jerri the right to group marriage...

Such hypocrites.
Right? Oh, the angst...

Who cares what you do with your heart and genitals...grandstanding sexual preferences just takes away from the credibility of average folks that just want to do their thing...whatever that thing happens to be.
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Old 2013-03-25, 08:14 PM   [Ignore Me] #6
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Re: Coming out is a good thing


Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
Yet they deny Liza, Dave and Jerri the right to group marriage...

Such hypocrites.
No they don't. They're currently trying to change the current definition of what marriage is, actually. The only people who try to deny that right are religious extremists.
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Old 2013-03-25, 08:40 PM   [Ignore Me] #7
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Re: Coming out is a good thing


Originally Posted by p0intman View Post
No they don't. They're currently trying to change the current definition of what marriage is, actually. The only people who try to deny that right are religious extremists.
Yes, California is FULL of religious extremist. So's Oregon. After all they voted it down.

Could it be that people believe marriage is between one man, and one woman and like it that way?

I mean, I know it's boring, lacks the emotional silliness of being able to attack people, but... nah. Better to insult and demonize those who believe two men, or two women a marriage do not make based on rage instead of having an honest discussion.

I bring up polygamy because that's next. Once you destroy marriage as it is...
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Old 2013-03-25, 09:21 PM   [Ignore Me] #8
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Re: Coming out is a good thing


That seems more like a slippery slope fallacy than anything else. Who says that polygamy will ever become legal in USA? And all because of legalizing gay marriage?
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Old 2013-03-25, 09:28 PM   [Ignore Me] #9
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Re: Coming out is a good thing


That's the problem though, polygamy isn't next. :/


There are no precedents where gay marriage becoming legal has led to other forms of marriage (or sex) becoming legal or even questioned. So it's a fearmongering slippery slope argument. If anything, things like pedophilia have come under more scrutiny due to having been raised out of the taboo sphere (see catholic priests / nuns).

The only ones that would opt for that "right on polygamy" would be some of Romney's religious associates and possibly some other religious sekts.


Btw, the reason you're tired of gay's coming out with this and this story is because to them it's still really special and in a lot of their communities it's often still very special. Over time, you're not going to get a lot of that sort of thing anymore, because once it's commonly accepted everyone's going to shrug when someone comes out of the closet. As long as it's "sensational" it's going to have news value. Apparently it still has that in a lot of US states.

Here most news about gays is about members of communities that deny gay people even exist (mostly islamic and caribean cultures, which don't accept such things to exist as it would shame their families and apparently offends their personal masculinity (are they that insecure about themselves?)).
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Old 2013-03-25, 10:12 PM   [Ignore Me] #10
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Re: Coming out is a good thing


Who gives a fuck if polygamy is next?

People can marry a car for all I care.
Isn't it in the US where Corporate Personhood is a thing?
Let Zuckerberg marry Facebook so at least he can play-pretend that he is a normal person and not a sociopath.
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Old 2013-03-25, 10:12 PM   [Ignore Me] #11
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Re: Coming out is a good thing


Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
Yes, California is FULL of religious extremist. So's Oregon. After all they voted it down.

Could it be that people believe marriage is between one man, and one woman and like it that way?

I mean, I know it's boring, lacks the emotional silliness of being able to attack people, but... nah. Better to insult and demonize those who believe two men, or two women a marriage do not make based on rage instead of having an honest discussion.

I bring up polygamy because that's next. Once you destroy marriage as it is...
The question is not if that is one of its definitions, the question is if it is its exclusive definition.

Do you believe that marriage is *exclusively* and should always be *exclusive* for people who are straight?

Keep in mind, if DOMA is overturned, it isn't suddenly the end of marriages between men and women, it merely opens it up for others to have many of the same law-enforced protections and rights that they are denied because of the exclusivity of the definition.
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Last edited by p0intman; 2013-03-25 at 10:14 PM.
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Old 2013-03-25, 10:34 PM   [Ignore Me] #12
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Re: Coming out is a good thing


Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
Yet they deny Liza, Dave and Jerri the right to group marriage...

Such hypocrites.
I'm all for universal marriage equilibrium.
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Old 2013-03-25, 10:47 PM   [Ignore Me] #13
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Re: Coming out is a good thing


Hell, if you want to marry four people at once, then have to pay alimony to any of them that divorce you because of the climate you created through that kind of arraignment, more power to you. Hell most polygamy laws were on the books around the same time things like homosexuality, and biracial marriage were themselves illegal. Don't know the exact dates, but I think most of them even predate the outlawing of slavery.

Last edited by Silent Thunder; 2013-03-25 at 10:51 PM.
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Old 2013-03-25, 11:47 PM   [Ignore Me] #14
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Re: Coming out is a good thing


Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
Could it be that people believe marriage is between one man, and one woman and like it that way?

I mean, I know it's boring, lacks the emotional silliness of being able to attack people, but... nah. Better to insult and demonize those who believe two men, or two women a marriage do not make based on rage instead of having an honest discussion.
I talked to a professor of mine before that held that view. It's interesting since after some discussion I found that his feelings on the subject were based on an idea that allowing same-sex marriage would weaken the marriage he had since in his eyes a same-sex couple could never have what he and his wife have. I think you're point touches at just the top layer by describing a person's personal preference, but doesn't go far enough into why it should be disallowed.

Conceptually marriage is a mechanism inherent in the tax system for couples whether they have kids or they don't. It's weird in that way since it's often misunderstood to be a system to give benefits toward reproductive couples, but that system is covered by child tax credits. That is you get a credit for doing something like caring for a child whether you make one from scratch or adopt one. In fact the tax system is hit and miss with couples who choose to file their taxes differently depending on how they're affected by it.

As far as I see it marriage should probably be removed from the tax system and from the legal system altogether. The issue is marriage is tied to a lot of features in our law system for hospital visits. The whole system really needs to be redone using lists of people instead. This would be a much better system in the end since who people marry would be a contract between themselves like it was meant to be. Bringing the government into our personal lives is the last thing we should be doing. They shouldn't really have that kind of information in the first place.

Removing marriage from the government has some nice advantages also since it simplifies the tax code and removes this cultural issue from our government. In fact since someone brought up polygamy this model fits that nicely. Any consenting relationship can be formed since the contract would be between the people making it and defined in a document ideally for splitting assets and dividing children if the relationship fails.
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Old 2013-03-26, 02:51 AM   [Ignore Me] #15
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Re: Coming out is a good thing


Originally Posted by Sirisian View Post
As far as I see it marriage should probably be removed from the tax system and from the legal system altogether. The issue is marriage is tied to a lot of features in our law system for hospital visits. The whole system really needs to be redone using lists of people instead. This would be a much better system in the end since who people marry would be a contract between themselves like it was meant to be. Bringing the government into our personal lives is the last thing we should be doing. They shouldn't really have that kind of information in the first place.

Removing marriage from the government has some nice advantages also since it simplifies the tax code and removes this cultural issue from our government. In fact since someone brought up polygamy this model fits that nicely. Any consenting relationship can be formed since the contract would be between the people making it and defined in a document ideally for splitting assets and dividing children if the relationship fails.
Yes, this is it. You take the state out of marriage then there really shouldn't be any problem among reasonable people. It isn't for me or anyone else to be telling other people how they can live their life and make marriage type contracts with other consenting adults. Of course when you collectivize something it instantly becomes everybody's business. It shouldn't matter whether people have a same sex marriage or polygamy if that's what makes them happy. The flip side of this is that religious institutions shouldn't be compelled to marry those that don't fit in with their views, or even acknowledge it on a religious level as "marriage".
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