Planetside 2 Needs Prone - Page 55

mirwalk · 2012-06-10, 04:11 PM

You have some valid tactics, FOR SKILLED PLAYERS. Half of the population is not skilled players. These are the newbies and zerg. And you need them for PS2 to be successful.
I don't want them all to be chased off by being decimated by skilled players who can work things to a T. Should they be outclassed? hell yes! but in situations like I outlined you just get to the point you drive those people away.

PsychoXR-20 · 2012-06-10, 04:16 PM

The simple fact is PS1 did just fine without prone. PS2 has been developed from the ground up without prone, so we can conclude that PS2 will do just fine without prone.

Originally Posted by Malorn

And the bottom line is that in spite of what the subject of this thread says - no, the game does not need prone. It can and will be successful without it, and prone is a threat to the gameplay that we know we like. There's been enough poor gameplay as a result of prone in the past that the risk vs reward for prone is not even remotely worth it.

This is probably the best argument for no prone. We know that the PS gameplay works without prone. Adding prone has a much higher chance of being devastating to the game play than it does adding to the gameplay.

captainkapautz · 2012-06-10, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by mirwalk

You have some valid tactics, FOR SKILLED PLAYERS. Half of the population is not skilled players. These are the newbies and zerg. And you need them for PS2 to be successful.
I don't want them all to be chased off by being decimated by skilled players who can work things to a T. Should they be outclassed? hell yes! but in situations like I outlined you just get to the point you drive those people away.

There is a point where you have to stop catering to noobs, either learn to throw grenades or accept that there are situations where you will be curbstomped.

Stew · 2012-06-10, 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by TheInferno

You got a source for this? Because I have not heard anything other than "grenades cost resources"

yes actually i have one

http://youtu.be/x0Gwu9Ssk8E?t=26m45s

mirwalk · 2012-06-10, 04:21 PM

Originally Posted by captainkapautz

There is a point where you have to stop catering to noobs, either learn to throw grenades or accept that there are situations where you will be curbstomped.

My situation with crouch will curbstomp noobs currently. I feel prone curbstomps, your average standard skill player.

PsychoXR-20 · 2012-06-10, 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by Stew

yes actually i have one

http://youtu.be/x0Gwu9Ssk8E?t=26m45s

No where in that did he say that utility grenades were free. Utility grenades were equippable, while the others were quick throw.

Stew · 2012-06-10, 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by PsychoXR-20

No where in that did he say that utility grenades were free. Utility grenades were equippable, while the others were quick throw.

yeah they said it somewhere in that cast i do not remeber exactly where lisen to it and youll find it i have a good memory about feature but not enough to remeber on a 50 minute webcast where exactly lol

but you can trust me they said thats utility was suposed to be cooldown and offensive was suposed to be ressource base at this time if it as change i did not see the change anywhere

so from since i did not see it been change it must be the same so a cool down timer

Khrusky · 2012-06-10, 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by mirwalk

@Khrusky
Yeah as I said everything you do with prone can be done with crouch. Prone just makes things twice as hard for people on the other end.
Depending on the scenario it could be an attacker (open areas) or a defender (closed areas).

A proper squad using tactics, armed with prone and voice chat in game? Will be nigh unstoppable defenders. With crouch they will be very good defenders. It is a matter of degree, one which I think prone in certain situations moves a bit to far and thus would be better left out of the game then in it.

Only when you're trying to out-shoot them. Someone attacking you from a hidden location is just as hard to find if they dive back behind a wall after every shot and keeps changing location as someone who uses prone (probably more so).
Crucially, counter-camper tactics are unaffected by prone as they rely on getting into very close range anyway.

Again, I think that prone only helps if you're trying to out-shoot rather than out-manoeuvre them. well-co-ordinated squads are always great, but that squad of prone defenders won't be able to stop a wing of aircraft bombing the bejeezus out of their hidey-hole. Cracking defences is a well-known skill.

I will agree that for people playing defensive roles properly, prone is a benefit to them because it will mean that they're harder to initially spot. However, there are plenty of counters to this. Guys with thermal sights would be one. Prone players are not unstoppable.

Originally Posted by mirwalk

it would be difficult with choke points. You step out to throw and get blocked by another player, you die. One guy misthrows and it bounces near the door, you get a breakup of the attackers and maybe some casualities.

You are also assuming a grenade lading close to a heavy will kill him if at full health, cause with a medic that is who will be up there.

Well if you can bounce grenades around corners then in many cases you may be able to throw grenades in without any risk to yourself. I was thinking of people rotaiting in so that all 5 of you throw your grenades within a couple of seconds. As long as the first person's grenade is pretty good, considering prone players are such easy targets for AoE at least one of them will have to move to avoid the blast, which makes every subsequent throw easier. Alternatively MAXs? We know they won't be able to prone.

TheInferno · 2012-06-10, 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by PsychoXR-20

No where in that did he say that utility grenades were free. Utility grenades were equippable, while the others were quick throw.

Exactly. Unless your time stamp is wrong, that's not proof at all.

mirwalk · 2012-06-10, 04:31 PM

I've said my piece. No clue how good frags are and my situation could be amped up. 3 prones, 3 maxes standing up shooting over their heads. a medic and and engin. revive the down people while maxes finish off the stormers.

Its all about a matter of degree. I think prone will just take some situations to far for little improvement in gameplay in other situations. as some people point out you can pull off other stuff the same without prone, so it doesn't mean prone needs to be added.

Khrusky · 2012-06-10, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by mirwalk

You have some valid tactics, FOR SKILLED PLAYERS. Half of the population is not skilled players. These are the newbies and zerg. And you need them for PS2 to be successful.
I don't want them all to be chased off by being decimated by skilled players who can work things to a T. Should they be outclassed? hell yes! but in situations like I outlined you just get to the point you drive those people away.

A fair point. However, I'm hoping that the skilled players make a concerted effort to actually take out the biggest threats and have people from their side hunt down the enemy players who are just using zerg-annihilating tactics so that they minimise the damage done to their team.

Admittedly it could devolve into good players annihilating all the bad players on the other's team and having implicit non-aggression pacts with the other teams good players, but this would screw things up and drive players away even if you just had all the good players doing a liberator/interceptor combo. Prone doesn't change this.

mirwalk · 2012-06-10, 04:37 PM

most choke point issues are going to be in building, and as the buildings are not destructible air craft have no impact on that. Some buildings are small enough to do that, really won't know till having a run through on beta.

Retaliation · 2012-06-10, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by Khrusky

Oh. Is it a reference I'm not getting?

Are you arguing that prone isn't useful? It seems counter-intuitive but it's what your argument seems to suggest. I will respond as if it is.
Prone is just another trade-off, like they've been going on about on the cert topic. Less mobility for more accuracy and smaller front hit box. Prone can be used very effectively to ensure that they can't be killed too easily while sniping by the people they're trying to snipe. That's just one example. It has simple counters though, so it it just a trade-off rather than a straight advantage. Prone isn't - and shouldn't be considered - useful indoors.

Again, what I said before: if the guy wasn't going to move before, how does the game become staler because instead of standing still he's sitting?

Na I was just trying to come up with a simpler way of saying prone favoring posters without it being condescending.

Ironically saying prone wouldn't be useful in the type of gameplay planetside embodies is close to what I'm trying to get at. Movement is king, and the moment you stop you're going to get bullets lodged in your skull. For prone to be useful you would have to provide more than usual benefits to it. I -and probably many others- am not comfortable with trying out prone when it doesn't seem compatible with the way I hope the game is going to be played (moderate arcade).

There is also a really subtle and quite easy to miss point about prone promoting standing still when they're going to stand still anyway. If made to be useful, prone just gives them advantages they shouldn't have in a game of movement. It's essentially unintentional exploiting of a mechanic that is otherwise pretty solid. RTS players hate base turtles for the same reason because you're either going to break them hard after a disproportionate time investment, or they'll win despite being completely passive until their push at the end. It's not so much the fact that they're defending that makes people angry, but that they're obstructive/winning despite putting forth far less effort. In the case of RTS it's because base defenses can't move so they're given high returns on investment compared to normal units. Unless you can prevent people from delaying the inevitable (or actually winning) despite not knowing what they're doing, it's just going to cause more problems than it solves.

P.S. nonsense like dolphin diving is exactly the kind of thing that would allow prone to be a viable move yet remain fairly weak.
P.P.S. I have no idea how much this will make sense to others.

Stew · 2012-06-10, 04:45 PM

http://youtu.be/x0Gwu9Ssk8E?t=31m34s

higby said something important about the gameplay

Stew · 2012-06-10, 04:49 PM

Originally Posted by Retaliation

Na I was just trying to come up with a simpler way of saying prone favoring posters without it being condescending.

Ironically saying prone wouldn't be useful in the type of gameplay planetside embodies is close to what I'm trying to get at. Movement is king, and the moment you stop you're going to get bullets lodged in your skull. .

Where di you take thats Prone = stationary target ?

iam a runner and gunner no way nears a non mooving players and i use prone to rush properly even more been prone is for a few secons time to reload to get a cover use terrain

why you guys keep saying the same thing who is no where near the truth if you dont use prone while rushing objective or base you probably die a way more than your suposed to

Prone do not mean sit on the ground and camp its getting ridicoulous

View Poll Results: Do you want Prone in PS2?
Yes	152	31.21%
No	312	64.07%
Other (Explain)	23	4.72%
Voters: 487. You may not vote on this poll