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Old 2012-08-03, 03:13 PM   [Ignore Me] #31
Salad Snake
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Re: TTK?


Originally Posted by Raxxus View Post
After Playing games like Project Reality mod for BF2 and ARMA series I am a big fan of low TTK games.

Low TTK games tend to make players use tactics and squadwork to achieve goals,while lone wolfing tends to get you killed very quickly.

I understand a lot of people prefer higher TTK however most games with a higher TTK tend to be shoebox shooters with confined deathmatch style maps and rapid player movement which usually turns into pointblank firefights where luck is generally more important then actual player skill.

Dont get me wrong I enjoy playing those sorts of games aswell Blacklight Retribution has me hooked atm, but for an Epic sandbox game such as PS2 I think a lower TTK would be better.
The thing about low TTK is that while it naturally conveys teamwork, it also conveys slow play and camping, since an advancing player has such a disadvantage against a player set up in one spot. I prefer aggressive play (lots of charging and mid-range focus fire), and I think that high TTK can also convey teamwork if efficiency bonuses for numbers is given while individual power is decreased (class-based FPS's do this automatically), and mag sizes are typically not too high or reloads too short.

Also, Blacklight has a fairly low TTK if every round hits. My HAR 3-shots default builds for instance.


Edit: I also agree with what Sirisian said earlier about higher TTK forcing both attacker and defender to make more decisions during combat. I like having to think on the fly in a fight, instead of just aiming while saving the maneuvering for before and after combat. With that said, I don't think it should be so high that it devolves into a series of duels instead of an actual battle (like Halo, where it takes nearly an entire mag due to high shield and low accuracy with automatics. If anything Battlefield 3's got a comfortable ttk (normal, not hardcore). An average of three enemies killable with a 30 round mag.

Last edited by Salad Snake; 2012-08-03 at 03:30 PM.
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Old 2012-08-03, 05:39 PM   [Ignore Me] #32
Klockan
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Re: TTK?


Higher TTK helps the Zerg, the easier it is to support your friends the more the Zerg benifits. Moving together isn't teamwork, moving together is zerging unless each one of you have a specific purpose. Zerg is all about redundancy, with enough people at the same spot you will be able to handle any situation. Teamwork is about making the most out of the guys you got so everyone needs to have a specific task. Planetside 1 was very zerg friendly, it was really easy to revive and heal people so losses didn't matter to a zerg as long as they won the engagement and the low TTK means that as long as you have overwhelming numbers you will always win that engagement.
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Old 2012-08-03, 08:33 PM   [Ignore Me] #33
Salad Snake
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Re: TTK?


Originally Posted by Klockan View Post
Higher TTK helps the Zerg, the easier it is to support your friends the more the Zerg benifits. Moving together isn't teamwork, moving together is zerging unless each one of you have a specific purpose. Zerg is all about redundancy, with enough people at the same spot you will be able to handle any situation. Teamwork is about making the most out of the guys you got so everyone needs to have a specific task. Planetside 1 was very zerg friendly, it was really easy to revive and heal people so losses didn't matter to a zerg as long as they won the engagement and the low TTK means that as long as you have overwhelming numbers you will always win that engagement.
Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding your argument, but a team of 20 redundant medics reviving each other is just as effective in a high or low ttk game. Having to make due with the guys you got is accomplished by class limits, but that's a moot point in this game since you'll have redundancy regardless of what the ttk is due to the population battles will have in Planetside. Also, numbers are still just as effective in a low ttk game unless you're in an open field mowing them down continuously, and even then they're putting more lead in the air than you (which is a more deadly tactic in low ttks, games like Red Orchestra are full of hugging one piece of cover spamming bullets downrange, and even real life combat consists of lots of blind firing since no one want to poke out and catch a bullet in the head). That kind of static, methodical play is extremely boring for some people, myself included.

If anything, the best gametype for defeating superior numbers is high ttk with large lethality bonus for good tactical play and class make up, because with the right squad you basically have low ttk against their high ttk.

Last edited by Salad Snake; 2012-08-03 at 08:37 PM.
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Old 2012-08-03, 08:55 PM   [Ignore Me] #34
Gugabalog
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Re: TTK?


There is a middleground where it encourages zerging and a high and low end where it encourages team play.
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Old 2012-08-04, 05:01 AM   [Ignore Me] #35
Klockan
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Re: TTK?


Originally Posted by Salad Snake View Post
If anything, the best gametype for defeating superior numbers is high ttk with large lethality bonus for good tactical play and class make up, because with the right squad you basically have low ttk against their high ttk.
Then you have mmorpg battles which are ridiculously boring.
Originally Posted by Salad Snake View Post
Also, numbers are still just as effective in a low ttk game unless you're in an open field mowing them down continuously.
There are two things that makes squads more effective than single guys if we don't count the ability to cover eachother etc. Firstly they take longer to kill and secondly they deal more damage. The lower the TTK the less important it is to have more than one guy shooting at a target and the lower the TTK the less important the added hitpoints are since it becomes more important to not get hit at all than actually tanking damage.
Originally Posted by Salad Snake View Post
and even then they're putting more lead in the air than you (which is a more deadly tactic in low ttks, games like Red Orchestra are full of hugging one piece of cover spamming bullets downrange, and even real life combat consists of lots of blind firing since no one want to poke out and catch a bullet in the head). That kind of static, methodical play is extremely boring for some people, myself included
Why would anyone spam out bullets in a low TTK game? If you can't see someone you can't kill them, and if you can see them you just shoot accurate bullets against them and they die. Shooting bullets randomly reveals your position which makes you vulnerable, only idiots shoots without an intended target. In real life it is different, there shots also scares people but people in games aren't scared of death.

Also the gameplay of low TTK games isn't slow in general, it is just different. Most of the time you aren't taking hits and you aren't shooting at people but that doesn't mean that it is slow, people don't move around less in low TTK games etc. Having bigger maps per player makes a game slower though, as do having long respawn times, ample of strong defensive positions, accurate long range fire etc. If people could reliably hit each other at 200m range in PS1 with standard weapons it would become a lot slower without any other changes.

Last edited by Klockan; 2012-08-04 at 05:04 AM.
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Old 2012-08-04, 05:35 AM   [Ignore Me] #36
Salad Snake
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Re: TTK?


Originally Posted by Klockan View Post
Then you have mmorpg battles which are ridiculously boring.
That's not really due to the ttk, but rather to the lack of variables in an RPG battle. From the two parties fighting you can pretty much calculate mathematically who the battle will go. In an FPS that is not the case, as there is terrain, cover, player skill, and spacing to take into account. The final two of those are subjective and thus impossible to mathematically compute.


Originally Posted by Klockan View Post
There are two things that makes squads more effective than single guys if we don't count the ability to cover eachother etc. Firstly they take longer to kill and secondly they deal more damage. The lower the TTK the less important it is to have more than one guy shooting at a target and the lower the TTK the less important the added hitpoints are since it becomes more important to not get hit at all than actually tanking damage.
The would seem to support my argument. If added hitpoints and focus fire aren't important than what, really, is the squad doing that's teamwork related? If you have one person handling all the combat while the other does the objective, then not only do you run the strong chance of having a non-entertaining game for 50% of your players, but you also aren't really doing the same thing together, you're two players off on your own doing separate things. Honestly I think we just disagree with what teamwork really is. I think of it as fighting together and bolstering each other in combat.

Originally Posted by Klockan View Post
Why would anyone spam out bullets in a low TTK game? If you can't see someone you can't kill them, and if you can see them you just shoot accurate bullets against them and they die. Shooting bullets randomly reveals your position which makes you vulnerable, only idiots shoots without an intended target. In real life it is different, there shots also scares people but people in games aren't scared of death.

Players would spam bullets at a distance they can't really clearly see enemies at because they may get a lucky hit while betting on not being hit through luck themselves. This is especially the case if it's extremely difficult to cross no-mans-land and functions like lean & and blindfire (both of which were in RO2) exist. One strength of high ttk imo is that it severely weakens or outright eliminates the concept of no-mans-land, helping aggressive charging play so long as a group isn't focus-fired.

Originally Posted by Klockan View Post
Also the gameplay of low TTK games isn't slow in general, it is just different. Most of the time you aren't taking hits and you aren't shooting at people but that doesn't mean that it is slow, people don't move around less in low TTK games etc. Having bigger maps per player makes a game slower though, as do having long respawn times, ample of strong defensive positions, accurate long range fire etc. If people could reliably hit each other at 200m range in PS1 with standard weapons it would become a lot slower without any other changes.
I think most people, when talking about overall game pace in the FPS genre, are talking about how quickly one gets into combat and how abundant that combat is. So by that definition what you described is undeniably a slow game. FPS is an action genre and I would argue that most people who play it like to see a lot of combat in a game, more so than silent maneuvering. This is evidenced by the fact that high ttk tend to have larger playerbases. TF2 and Battlefield have a lot more fans than ARMA and Red Orchestra. That's not to say that combat should be the only thing an FPS is about, but successful games usually make it a vast majority as it is much better for entertaining & holding most players attention than strongly position-based games. Luckily PS2 seems to have a ttk on the middling side, perhaps a tad high, along with (of course) quite abundant combat.

Also, as a random aside, I don't think I've ever seen a very low ttk with a quick respawn time. In fact, many don't let you respawn at all.

Last edited by Salad Snake; 2012-08-04 at 05:36 AM.
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Old 2012-08-05, 07:42 AM   [Ignore Me] #37
Klockan
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Re: TTK?


Originally Posted by Salad Snake View Post
I think most people, when talking about overall game pace in the FPS genre, are talking about how quickly one gets into combat and how abundant that combat is. So by that definition what you described is undeniably a slow game. FPS is an action genre and I would argue that most people who play it like to see a lot of combat in a game, more so than silent maneuvering. This is evidenced by the fact that high ttk tend to have larger playerbases. TF2 and Battlefield have a lot more fans than ARMA and Red Orchestra.
Hmm, I think that you and I have different opinions on what constitutes a long TTK. No BF game had a long TTK, it was roughly medium. Quake, TF2, Planetside, UT and Halo have long TTK but games with that kind of TTK have been phased out in favor of BF-like TTK. Personally I like the TTK in the BF games.

Originally Posted by Salad Snake View Post
Also, as a random aside, I don't think I've ever seen a very low ttk with a quick respawn time. In fact, many don't let you respawn at all.
Call of duty got instant respawns, short TTK (kinda like CS) and small maps. It isn't slow at all and the game is really popular.
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Old 2012-08-05, 11:27 PM   [Ignore Me] #38
Salad Snake
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Re: TTK?


Originally Posted by Klockan View Post
Hmm, I think that you and I have different opinions on what constitutes a long TTK. No BF game had a long TTK, it was roughly medium. Quake, TF2, Planetside, UT and Halo have long TTK but games with that kind of TTK have been phased out in favor of BF-like TTK. Personally I like the TTK in the BF games.


Call of duty got instant respawns, short TTK (kinda like CS) and small maps. It isn't slow at all and the game is really popular.
Ah, that is the source of our misunderstanding. I had assumed you meant Red Orchestra-like ttk as short, with BF and above being high ttk. I also much enjoy the ttk in BF3, it feels quite balanced. A little shorter than BF2 and 2142, but that's due to increased weapon accuracy when ADS'ing instead of less actual hits.
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Old 2012-08-05, 11:56 PM   [Ignore Me] #39
Dubious
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Re: TTK?


With PS2s TTK your better off running a full medic squad
They have the best weapon and can revive those that die
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Old 2012-08-06, 11:25 PM   [Ignore Me] #40
Salad Snake
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Re: TTK?


Originally Posted by Dubious View Post
With PS2s TTK your better off running a full medic squad
They have the best weapon and can revive those that die
I'm sure that it'll get nerfed should it prove to be overpowered during beta. I didn't see too many people playing Medic in all the E3 footage.
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Old 2012-08-08, 01:37 AM   [Ignore Me] #41
Lipe
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Re: TTK?


I find quake-like gameplay (faster running speed, higher TTK) much more interesting and fun than CoD-like gameplay (slow running speed, low TTK, ADS) , and from what I've seem PS2's gameplay is pending more towards CoD side which worries me a bit, but I'll reserve my judgment until I've tried it out. I also hate random weapon spread since it adds an element of luck to firing, but it seems like every single shooter has that so oh well, just wish they'd find a less luck-based solution to spraying.
Also first post here.

Last edited by Lipe; 2012-08-08 at 01:39 AM.
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