Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2

[Punker]

IMHO the time to kill, and the base layout plays a lot in the power that these zergfits have.

The 3 infamous zergfits (not mentioning any names, 1 per empire though i'm sure anyone could guess who they were) were notoriously bad at PS1, strategically and skill wise. They would do exactly what they do in PS2, just drop numbers onto a position and then swarm around like ants until they covered enough of the area.

The difference is, because of the base design (defensible choke points, and the fact you can't park a tank outside of a spawn door) and the TTK being significantly higher, more organised and skilled outfits with a smaller number of players were still very effective against the zergfits.

The most frustrating thing for me is that the people "commanding" their zerg outfit are also notorious for making dumb decisions, moving the bulk of their force to empty bases or over extending on the map - this hurts the entire empire. While the smaller outfits have little support facing the main force of the enemy, it generally takes 30+mins for these guys to realise that their team of 200 are only fighting 20 guys, and then slowly meander back to the frontline to TK and stare at the ground.

[Kracken]

The more I read this, the more I dread if anything here limiting massive scale gets implemented.

You want smaller more controlled battles where your smaller group feels larger?

BF3 There you go it has caps for you. 64 Player Multiplayer available on PC; 24 Player Multiplayer available on Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3.

Or

Call of Duty®: Black Ops 2 features new and extensive Stats-tracking, as well as improved Leaderboards for bragging rights. The new skill-based matchmaking system will allow players of the same skill levels to be teamed-up to fight Zombies in public game modes.

I've never played those and will most likely not ever. What attracts me to PS2 is the very thing most of you here are attacking, massive scale and organization. I really cannot believe the posts I'm seeing from the folks posting them. A focus on small unit team play is not the focus, read the official site.

Also for anyone to be clamoring for change now after two months is really, really short sighted and is coming off as self motivating. Look at this way, everything promoted about PS2 is about Large Massive conflicts and the game has won 30 AWARDS IN 2012 already, look at the official planetside website website.

This thread is unfortunate. It should be locked/deleted and replaced with what future dynamics/objectives could be implemented for smaller outfits. This is just a crusade against forces larger and more organized or less organized in disguise.

[SGOniell]

On Jaeger there is one NC outfit in particular that just pisses me off. Constant /orders spam from like 3 of their guys letting people know they're looking for new players. Its annoying as all hell. It really irks me that they use /orders to do it instead of yell. Half the time I want to reach through my computer and smack them repeatedly if I could. That is the only reason I hate larger outfits, all that spam. I run a small squad sized outfit and feel the spam is absolutely not cool. Leave it to the forums or if people ask in-game. Also, maybe adjust the user agreement to deem that soliciting and do away with any and all soliciting.

[Wahooo]

Originally Posted by Kracken

The more I read this, the more I dread if anything here limiting massive scale gets implemented.

You want smaller more controlled battles where your smaller group feels larger?

Not a PS1 vet are you?

You've kinda missed the point of the complaints in this thread. What is desired is adjustments to the system/base layouts/meta game that allow smaller WELL ORGANIZED outfits to be very effective, or simply to have a roll at all.

PS1 had massive battles as well, and the zerg and zerg herders were the main driver in base/continent capture. BUT smaller organized outfits had a HUGE roll and for those that were in them and fought against them it was a great mini-game in the larger scheme. A gen hold or base drain not at random, but at a very important base that happened to be away from the main zerg and how it was responded to could absolutely turn the tide one way or another.
Right now the way PS2 plays this aspect is lacking. Winning and losing appear to be related to nothing but pure numbers on the battlefield. And the elements that did seem there were removed or neutered. Tech-plants were ripe for a small organized outfit to swing a battle in defense OR offense. A shield diffuser sundy with a coordinated outfit of decent players could easily crack a tech plant long enough for the zerg to break in, EVEN with the "exploited" AMS locations like upstairs next to the control point. It just didn't happen often.

Nobody wants to nerf the massive battles we just want 2 things really.
1) Base/Continent capture have SOME tactical aspect other than overwhelming numbers.
2) A game impacting roll for smaller 10-30 man, well organized outfits.

[Sledgecrushr]

Originally Posted by Wahooo

Not a PS1 vet are you?

You've kinda missed the point of the complaints in this thread. What is desired is adjustments to the system/base layouts/meta game that allow smaller WELL ORGANIZED outfits to be very effective, or simply to have a roll at all.

Let me reiterate what I see on twitch tv every night happening on Matthison. Watch Sujieun and his two squads on his twitch channel and learn how to operate a small detachment in planetside 2.

[Hamma]

Originally Posted by Kracken

BF3 There you go it has caps for you. 64 Player Multiplayer available on PC; 24 Player Multiplayer available on Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3.

This is not constructive and flat out bullshit. Don't bother participating in this thread further.

PS1 had the things we are looking for. Don't make dumb blanket statements. The thread has been constructive thus far let's keep it that way.

[Hamma]

The problem with bases (gen rooms in particular) is there are far to many windows and they are impossible to hold long term. Almost every single building in PlanetSide 2 can have a vehicle influence the inside and that just doesn't make sense.

[Hamma]

Originally Posted by Malorn

* Do resources need a bigger role? (in theory, a small outfit can better do resource denial with small territories)
* Does territory capture need to be slowed down to allow for response, regrouping, and to wear down a zerg?
* Does defense need to be more rewarding XP-wise?
* Do vehicles need to cost more resources to help reduce spam?
* Do deployment options need to be reduced to encourage more natural concentration of force? (I'm thinking PS1 here where you had 3-4 options on where to spawn and it kept forces together so you weren't steamrolled as much and opened up opportunity for small outfits to avoid the concentrations)

Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Hard to say.. worth a try.
Yes.

You should require a minium number of players to capture almost anything. One guy should not be able to start capturing empty frontline outposts and pull forces to where he is as he rides away on an ATV.

[evild]

Originally Posted by Malorn

To illustrate, see bio labs - they are the exception and actually are defensible because the two things I listed above are not true. The spawn is very close to the points, and the dome protects the area from vehicle influence. Bio labs are actually very close to PS1-style facilities and have the same rocket-spam on the landing pads as you saw in PS1 facility doors after the courtyard got overrun.

Biolabs are all backwards. You have exterior spawn points that once taken are difficult to recapture, that have telepads that lead right into the base, as close as the central spawn. A sunderer beside the exterior telepad is just as effective as the main spawn room. its the equivalent of a PS1 AMS router, but the router is unkillable and the far end is shield protected.

There's no 'progression' on the interior of the biolab like PS1. For PS1 think of an interlink, first you fight for the lobby, maybe takes a push, then stairs , or back tunnel to secure rooms on the level down, break the bd, then you have the choice of subbasement/gen or spawns.

Ps2 biolab is very open, walk in the air pad, and you've got ~180 deg of people shooting at you, not to mention all the rooftops. So there's no way to organize and cover angles, its just run as fast as you can and shoot people in the back and spam grenades. There's no BD holds, no lobby holds, no gen rush and hold the gen area, no hack to delay spawn timers and cut off benefits. AMS+Telepad is just as fast as the main spawn. Its just 'hey lets run around really fast and shoot each other and spawn back in real fast because there's no real depth to the game so we have to make it 'fast paced' to distract people from the lack of anything actually interesting to do.'

[Wahooo]

Originally Posted by evild

There's no 'progression' '

I've been working in my head on a big long post but so many threads right now are coming together on this subject I wasn't sure where to put it, but base defense/capture boil down to this point. And right now PS2 base attack and defense this is the case. There looks to be an attempt at it but it missed and needs a severe overhaul on many levels at all bases.

[p0intman]

malorn, tldr of this thread:

give us targets that are fit for 1-2 squads or so that do not subject us to the horrible tank/liberator spam and zergbattlefieldside that are also meaningful and fun, and on as many bases as is possible.

couple of questions to keep in mind when messing with terrain/bases:
"if i bring 40-100 guys to this fight, does it completely shut down the fun here?"
"can i effectively lock down any chance of defenders being able to defend, either through spawn camping with libs or tanks or by setting up a crossfire on a telepad, in such a way that defenders stand no chance?"

if the answer to either of those is yes, at any time, you're doing something wrong.

[Kracken]

Originally Posted by Hamma

This is not constructive and flat out bullshit. Don't bother participating in this thread further.

PS1 had the things we are looking for. Don't make dumb blanket statements. The thread has been constructive thus far let's keep it that way.

Why do you selectively quote and then threaten? All I did was search FPS and look for games with objectives built for less players then quote the websites. How is that bullshit?

[robocpf1]

Malorn, I'll throw out some examples I've found, hopefully they'll get the creative juices flowing. Without delving too deeply into "what the problem is", because people have nailed that, here are just some things from PS1 that made small outfits thrive, and a couple of "new" ideas.

1) Towers. In PS1, a "Tower" was either in the middle of nowhere and nobody fought there, was in the middle of a main thoroughfare for vehicles (like the one between Aja and Bomazi, it was the focus of some intense armor fights) or were "tied" to a base. They were important. You had to have the tower to take the base 90% of the time. In PS2, there are too many different outposts (and four different spawns per facility, one of which is a "tower"). Small outfits used to excel at denying these and starving off the large outfits that were trying to take the base. Without the tower, large outfits couldn't push in, and the assault would fizzle. In PS2, this situation doesn't happen.

2) Base draining / NTU. A way to hit a base that isn't linked. Imagine on Indar if a small outfit snuck behind VS lines and either captured Hvar, killing our tech, or neutralized it, causing nobody to have it but now it has to be both recaptured and filled with fuel. It doesn't matter if you're able to hold it very long, you've just killed our ability to pull tanks, and that both gives you a great fight and helps your empire. If our empire doesn't respond promptly enough, you can go back and kill us even more. This also stops the zerg from jumping so quickly. If we have to actually stop and fix what we break, defenders have more time to prepare. Usually, when I get ousted from a base, by the time I spawn at the next base up there is already a Sunderer deploying and a large tank force rolling in because the zerg doesn't have to wait. Let's make them wait a couple of minutes.

3) Generators were linked to the benefit, not to a shield. Gen holds were a huge draw to small outfits. You go and kill the gen of the only interlink on a continent, everyone's swarming to you. You might hold it long enough for your empire's larger force to push into their base though. Without that radar, their forces are weaker. You could kill tech or their dropship repair benefit, too. Nobody really killed gens for the biolab or amp benefit, but if they were more important that could work.

4) Cave Modules were a force multiplier. I think I can reliably say that when SOE released core combat, even though the BFRs weren't great, the mods you could harvest from caves made small outfits even more of a threat. They also gave small outfits yet another target - take out the enemy's mods so they have less benefits, or even better, STEAL the enemy's mods and take them as your own.

5) Make-Your-Own-Objective! In PS1, you could manipulate the lattice and the spawning mechanism to sort of pick an objective that wasn't an objective. The best way I know how to describe this is a "Medical Room Hold". You get a squad of guys and take the medical room in a PS1 bio lab and make a nuisance of yourselves. This is a base on the front line, people are spawning, and you and your squad are killing them all as they try to run out the door. Eventually the other empire notices and rushes you, but you've just delayed their vehicle reinforcements by several minutes and caused a pretty big diversion. Loads of exp as well. Or, if the NC is about to cap a TR LLU...maybe a small VS outfit comes in and camps the capture area so they can't. That was always fun.

6) A dynamic, mobile target - this is a new idea. Imagine a cross between an LLU and the rabbit event, except now instead of it being a rare event, it's up every few minutes. Small outfits move faster and with more precision, so how about a big blinking target that gives the empire some sort of benefit and the outfit exp if they capture it take it back to a certain base? It constantly changes where it spawns and the target base. Alert, enemy radar module located at Scarred Mesa. Capture it and bring it to Hvar, and we'll be able to see the enemy's radar signatures for the next 10 minutes!

7) Non-vehicle areas. A fortress where infantry reign supreme. The best footsoldiers survive. No tank shells or Daltons, no barrages from Lightnings, no roadkills.

8) LLUs / Capture the Flag - a faster way to take a base. Currently all base captures are by "king of the hill". I think many people have voiced their support for this and the devs have even mentioned they want to have more varied capture mechanics, I'm just noting it here.

9) Resource scarcity - I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm never low on resources. Ever. Unless I pull a tank and then immediately want to pull another one, I don't even keep up with how many resources I have. My infantry resources are important to me so I can keep refilling my supply of revive grenades and C4. Do we still get resources for fighting in an area? So if we fight at Ceres Biotech, which has infantry resources, and we get a kill, do we still get resources? Maybe that should be removed and we should only get resources during the "deposit" ticks, instead of accumulating them through fighting. That would give specific territories more value.

[p0intman]

Originally Posted by Kracken

Why do you selectively quote and then threaten? All I did was search FPS and look for games with objectives built for less players then quote the websites. How is that bullshit?

telling us to go play another game like battlefield is ironic given that we're trying to get away from battlefield gameplay. The irony is just... LOL.

think on this: you're telling us to GTFO a franchise we've effectively called 'home' for the last decade or so now. would you ever dare go to someones home and do the same?

dont do it here. I'm frankly tempted to tell you to go back to WoW/LoL/BF3/CoD/AoC or whereever the fuck it is you were before PS2 came along, but im being nice for once.

[GreatMazinkaise]

I think there's another thing people are forgetting:

Fast re-secures... replacement of Hack and Hold with the tug of war (and every other capture system PS2 has had throughout its run) has made resecures impossible. In PS1 it was possible for a squad of competent individuals to fight their way to the CC and reset the hack completely, buying more time for friendly zerglings to show up and win the day.

That's just not possible anymore... you may take a point back, but it does very little to slow down the enemy zerg and has very little effect on the capture bar. The old fast re-secure outfits have been reduced to farming the hell out of the periphery of the zerg, they've just got nothing else to do in the current paradigm.