Improvement: Classes + free form = PS1/PS2 Crossover suits!

Figment · 2012-07-31, 09:36 AM

I know, I know, probably late, but I still want to show you how I'd have done the whole infantry system.

For convenient (thought) referencing, using the sand box, free form layout of PS1, to create a similar free form, though a bit more class restricted setup for PS2, in exchange for special abilities. This should encourage more players to carry team support items, thus improving the overall teamwork abilities of groups, particularly small groups who benefit most (where they had no role overlaps, they get some).

In this setup, the shape of the box determines what size objects can fit in, what you can carry in total (yes, Tetris is back!).

Note that I made a separate section for "repair and healing juice". This is the primary advantage of Medics and Engineers: they can carry far more and keep up healing and repairing 3 to 3,5 times longer than other classes. Of course, they also get special abilities, which create advantages for selecting them over the other suits.

In contrast, in this particular example, I've limited the Driver & Pilots to small weapons, but gave them slots for both healing and repairing and slightly more juice than say an HA, plus they get a small surge special ability. Another class that also gets the surge ability is the new Rifleman class. So rather than a shield (which IMO should disable weapon use to make it tactical), they get a sprinting boost like in PS1.

The sniper and infil have been split up into separate suits. As you can see, some units have 4x4 slots and others 3x4 (vertical slots) or 4x3 (horizontal) slots. Most pistols would be 3x3 in size. With adaptions, they might become 4x3 (for instance, with silencer mounted in front). The 3x4 can potentially equip a medical applicator, whereas the 4x3 can equip a repair gun. The sniper class is the only one who would be able to carry the longest and heaviest hitting, most accurate sniper rifles. I would not stop scout sniper rifles from being equiped by other players.

All in all, I think the image is pretty self-explanatory. Any comments, questions and critiques, fire away!

(PS: Did not make one for the MAX yet, being quite a class of its own).

Hosp · 2012-07-31, 10:00 AM

Fancy. Looks good and some nice work there. I like it...But wholly irrelevant.

Figment · 2012-07-31, 11:36 AM

Would you be so kind to state why it's irrelevant?

NOTE: If you have limited engi/healing juice capacity and you want to bring both tools, that's possible, but you won't be able to do both a lot. The medic and engi can sustain such a support function much longer and efficient, but can only do one of the two as a trade-off. So for instance, if you can bring enough juice to repair one MAX and heal three infantry: that's it. A medic could heal say 12-15 infantry instead, but not repair MAXes/vehicles, engi could repair a lot of vehicles. Driver and pilot could repair some and heal some, but would lose overall inventory and carry less heavy guns.

There are therefore a lot of inbuilt trade-offs in the suits, but you would be able to finetune to your playing style much better and this would be especially helpful for tiny outfits who can't afford the luxury of dedicated classes.

Trip · 2012-07-31, 12:10 PM

you've put a lot of thought into this but hosp is right, it to late now. These decisions have already been made long ago.

Figment · 2012-07-31, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by Trip

you've put a lot of thought into this but hosp is right, it to late now. These decisions have already been made long ago.

Technically all they need to do is split ammo and make ammo for repairs and healing into boxes that fits in the other area, then assign sizes to slots.

In fact, they could use weight and size. The system would need some refining and reassigning, but with a dedicated effort, that could be done in a month worth of testing.

The graphics for this can be done within a couple days. I'd say some weeks would be needed for the coding. Beyond that, mostly some UI overhauls remappings.

Tbh, this could still be implemented pre-open beta, should SOE be open to change.

That's the beauty of forums isn't it? Half a year ago, people would say wait for Beta. Now they'll say "too late to change it".

Hosp · 2012-07-31, 12:32 PM

"It's too late to change" doesn't refer to actual timing as there can always be change down the line. What it refers to is intent. I don't see the Devs changing their intent, much as we might prefer the old style or your proposal.

Figment · 2012-07-31, 12:39 PM

That though is simply about convincing devs. Whether at gunpoint through forum pressure, or simply through argumentation...

Not doing anything or moving on disappointed is not going to change anything no.

Either way, "Not shooting is always missing".

Littleman · 2012-07-31, 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by Figment

That though is simply about convincing devs. Whether at gunpoint through forum pressure, or simply through argumentation...

Not doing anything or moving on disappointed is not going to change anything no.

Either way, "Not shooting is always missing".

What SOE has going now is a clear and solid design decision made despite how comfortable some people were with the PS1 system. It won't change because a few clamor for it back, no matter how well worded their argument. This is something the developers have decided on, without our consent. We're not about to change their minds.

The suggestion neglects the fact that part of the class system's purpose is to keep the support tools OUT of most roles hands. Stealthers clearly can not heal or repair for example, this is intended by design.

Program · 2012-07-31, 04:58 PM

Someone should ask the devs about this in beta when it comes.

Figment · 2012-07-31, 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by Littleman

The suggestion neglects the fact that part of the class system's purpose is to keep the support tools OUT of most roles hands. Stealthers clearly can not heal or repair for example, this is intended by design.

Yes and no.

What the suggestion does is not stop use, like the PS2 classes, but limit use by splitting the full free form, next to no restrictions, PS1 suits (also a form of classes) into better defined semi-free form suits with enhancements and specialisations built into the suits as trade-offs for having less slots, smaller slots (directly preventing use of specific equipment!) and limiting prolonged use of 'special' abilities like healing and repairing.

What this system solves and does take into account, that the PS2 system does not, is three-fold:

1. Small team overdependency issue: with few players, you cannot bring each class to provide the support you need. Specifically overdependency on the medic and engineer.

2. Basic flexibility in the field. Although I don't like the PS2 Br40 setup at all because of using all tools over time, it creates an overly rigid use of a players life. It is impossible to change weapons at all, switch out support tools and pistols or even grab different grenades. Yet you will always have to prepare for a multitude of possible events. You might encounter aircraft, tanks, MAXes, infils or other infantry.

3. Now in PS1 you could do all of that, but also sustaining yourself a long time. Sustaining yourself is not a bad thing, but too long could be. This system does allow it, BUT makes you more sensitive to attrition: you run out of support resources fast if not a dedicated class. But it also doesn't force you to be an engineer when you drive a tank or pilot an aircraft though if you want to repair now and then and have to continue on foot.

Fighting will switch from very long range to long range to short range and mêlee. The current classes allow you to bring one weapon per life, two if you count pistols, three if you count knife. Only few can bring AV.

The beauty of the PS1 system is that you can adapt by switching gear from your loading without an equip term, at the cost of ammo, medkits, etc. In this suggestion you can adapt too, albeit some of your concessions are more predetermined due to the layout of your suit. These predetermined concessions create team dependency just like classes. They are simply not as rigid.

On top of that, you will also have to make more tactical choices than in PS1 and PS2: if you run out of med juice, you also can't repair anymore! In PS1 you never needed to consider that, while in PS2 you simply can't even consider it.

It is a very simple system that requires quite minimal changes from the PS2 system. The depiction above can be easily translated to the current PS2 loadout selection UI and in terms of art just requires some loadout sideview screens that are already in game as certs to be made available on a grid. Slots barely need to change, some checking of specific items could be done or slotshapes adapted to existing tools.

Basically, what I'm doing with this system, is evolving the existing system which was innovative then and still is, rather than copying an outdated system from games that have nog innovated anything in 8 years and never really have. What those other games did, is flesh out a for small multiplayer, minimal context chantant environment, with balanced teams, few if any vehicles, few wildly varying objectives and short travel times.

But that system is not suited for a MMO where people work in bigger and smaller groups, alone and most importantly, in dynamic, ever changing contexts. Indoor outdoor infantry vehicle in vehicle rep vehicle move into base, etc etc.

The pure rigid class system overcomplicates the capacity for players to adapt to changing circumstances.

Littleman · 2012-07-31, 08:46 PM

Originally Posted by Figment

The pure rigid class system overcomplicates the capacity for players to adapt to changing circumstances.

I don't think anyone calling for "teamwork" should ever utter this line. The very idea of someone being the one that can take on the situations you can't, and vice versa I thought is what encouraged teamwork? As a medic, I'll want to stick with engineers, MAXes, or HA in the field for their (possible) AV capabilities.

Nah, this is an elaborate idea to bring back what was, which goes completely against what SOE has decided - support tools only for dedicated support roles, so that we don't have HA soloing and healing themselves, as anyone can clearly see they could do with that 4x4 slot you're suggesting on giving them. With regenerating shields, why wouldn't most people go primarily HA at that point if they're planning on grunting it?

Cuross · 2012-07-31, 09:09 PM

I'll be one of the first to admit that I feel going to a class system might be a step backwards as far as a game such as Planetside is concerned. But I'm also going to freely admit that the class system may yet be exactly what PlanetSide has been looking for for a while. Even if you give all the other classes a miniscule capacity to perform engineer/medic roles, they will be misused to the utmost possible. The Medic/Engineer can still heal/repair 3-3.5 times as much as the other classes, but a squad of six heavy assaults running around a battlefield healing everyone is going to happen.

I like the idea of freeform inventory, but while the old saying that everything is fair in love and war would mean why can't a heavy assault stand behind a MAX and heal him, but I like where SOE is going with the class system. Would I like to see sandbox inventory again? Hell yes I would! But I'd also like to keep all class specific gear and equipment on the classes they were meant for.

Figment · 2012-08-01, 12:44 AM

Because being forced to run around as two medics to be able to revive one another is too restrictive.

Restrictions can choke a game too. Too much and players won't feel free to play the game as they want. Considering those players won't have much healing power, they can't Go through 20 players as they used to, but they will face far more deadly situations. What is essentialy wrong with healing yourself twice or thrice?

What is wrong with someone being encouraged to take some risk? If I run from rock A to rock B in PS I may barely survive. Should a player then just sit thee waiting for an aoe weapon?

What is wrong with all of that being less effective? Do you want to promote camping instead, because that's the only way for low player counts to do anything?

I'm sorry, but you two are painting doomsday scenario's without being critical of SOEs decision at all. When you give explicit afvantages to these specific suits, players can play around with different strategies. Medics are much better for large groups and would be used plenty. Most players should and do run around as infantry. I don't get why you think a minimal bit of self sustaining AND CAPACITY TO HELP SOMEONE ELSE AS ANY CLASS FOR A VERY LIMITED BIT, is NOT encouraging teamwork. If you can't support someone As HA like now, you won't ever do that. If you have the potential to, you will more often. Not always, but you will, more often.

This allows tiny teams to work toegther, where the current design only supports big teams. Maybe you only zerg in groups of twenty and don't get that groups of two is also teamwork? Two players are outnumbered and will be disadvantaged anyway, give them something to work with.

And as said before, nobody says this has to be as effective as a class specific player in many ways. Use your imagination. Big teams are still better, but small teams become a bit more independent. Who are you to force two friends to play in zerg just to even have a chance of getting healed?

Cuross · 2012-08-01, 04:21 AM

Woah, no need for emotionally charged arguments here, we're not trying to be the bad guys (well at least I'm not). I like your idea for freeform inventory, but I'm just suggesting that if you give other classes the ability to perform even minor healing/repairing, the emphasis on said support classes is altogether reduced. I'm not against emergency healing or repairing when there's no other option around, but let's let medpacks take up the slack.

Once again, I just think that if we gave everyone the ability to use them, most people won't be relying on medics and engineers anymore, just whoever has a medgun and is close. Sure it'll suck for people who don't have any other options, but I think medpacks is a good enough compromise for what you're offering.

Basically, I just think that medics and engineers should not be sought after just for their special abilities if they lose the uniqueness of their healing/repairing.

Figment · 2012-08-01, 06:08 AM

Originally Posted by Cuross

Woah, no need for emotionally charged arguments here, we're not trying to be the bad guys (well at least I'm not).

Eh. It prolly came over more emotional than it should have.

(And I misread your post a bit).

I like your idea for freeform inventory, but I'm just suggesting that if you give other classes the ability to perform even minor healing/repairing, the emphasis on said support classes is altogether reduced. I'm not against emergency healing or repairing when there's no other option around, but let's let medpacks take up the slack.

Once again, I just think that if we gave everyone the ability to use them, most people won't be relying on medics and engineers anymore, just whoever has a medgun and is close. Sure it'll suck for people who don't have any other options, but I think medpacks is a good enough compromise for what you're offering.

Basically, I just think that medics and engineers should not be sought after just for their special abilities if they lose the uniqueness of their healing/repairing.

Thing is, they don't lose their class' unique ability advantages: they will be the only ones with area of effect healing abilities, setting up fortifications, etc.

The thing is, you might reduce their absolute need because there's nobody else, but that's the entire point. I don't think it's fair to have one side have healing and another none at all, because there's no dedicated medic.

Dedication is great and should be rewarded, but overspecialisation leads to imbalances and inflexible units more than anything. PlanetSide is fun, because you can be creative with your unit. You can devise new strategies every day. To this day, I still come up with new ways to play.

If you restrict the class system to just change gun stats... why bother customizing at all? Gun customization is pretty bland and hardly effective. consider this though: If you want a good shotgun as a NC, do you use the Sweeper (restricted medic capacity) or the Jackhammer (full medic capacity)? Both can win, but if you want the best edge in medical assistance for your squad, you'll get a medic. But it's not a forced choice on anyone. What if nobody in your squad WANTS to play dedicated medic? Should anyone be forced to?

Should anyone feel they are not just encouraged to use a role for specific situations, but forced to use it because your teammates already took the fun roles and somebody HAS to play "the support bitch"?

Who likes being forced into any roles? Particularly one where nobody else can take some pressure of.

I don't get it when people suggest that a bit of overlap removes the need for the role or removes teamwork: didn't we all work together in PS1? I got healed and repaired by loads of randoms, not because they were dedicated healers/engis, but because they could and because they would get some exp for it and we could support each other in combat directly. That still made those advanced medics that could revive us all and didn't have barely enough for himself very important.

The PS2 system doesn't leave room for choice. It let's you choose your guns, but provides no freedom to choose and create your class. That is just a huge devolution from PlanetSide and it's an Unique Selling Point that SOE is throwing out to get the Non-Unique Selling Point that all other games have: gun tuning. Boring.

If I get one weapons slot, I'd much rather be able to pick a rifle and put a shotgun in my backpack, then to be forced to pick one or the other, but be able to change the scope to 8x zoom or 6x zoom, or a grip or whatever. And only one instead of the multizoom from PS1, making it almost useless and annoying at other ranges.

If you look at the systems, this is where we are:

Independence from dedicated medic for healing: 100% (self heal/revive) ----PS1 (80%)---------Crossover class (60%)---------------------PS2 (0%)

The same for the engineer. Why should only DEDICATED engineers be able to repair their vehicles or MAXes? In PS1, that'd be like no engineer cert, or only those that have Assault/Fortification engineering. That'd make vehicle drivers waaaay to dependent on one infantry class, while you could just give them basic engineering at a third of the repair speed. That too is an important trade-off, but at least it's not all-or-nothing!

And again an Engineer in this setup would be less dependent on replenishing juice and could heal more tanks faster (note it would also be the only class capable of deploying turrets and fortifications, still making them absolutely unique and important). Hence it would still be a huge benefit to bring one. You're just not stuck without any choice.

Hence also why the black-white scenario being passed off as the only way to ensure teamwork and classes being interesting is painting a picture of Doomsday.

The system that's best suited for any MMOFPS is one where you have to make trade-offs and making your own trade-off decides strengths and weaknesses, but not one where it's all or nothing. All or nothings are far too forcible.

Btw, you suggest medkits... Speaking of something that's not creating teamwork because you can't use it on someone else...

(something else: ammo packs should not be dropped to replenish all ammo: if you bring your own gear, you can carry ammo for others and simply drop it, just like in PS1 - this again is a trade-off and creative use of a system that PS2 is again far too rigid AND far too over-the-top overpowered in). PS2: No Engi? No ammo resupply. "What do you mean, give someone else one of your guns? They're mine! MINE!", PS1: "Sure, here's a box of shotgun ammo, if you can open a term in a bit when we fight our way to it, then we can both get some new stuff." PS2: "None of you can open that term, get yourself a hackingbitch-infil."

So you need an engi to resupply, a medic to heal, but neither of you really can stand toe to with a HA or vehicle, so you both need to be medic to revive the other while one needs to be HA too instead of an Engi, but then you got the ammo problem again, and since neither can open a term, etc etc... Meanwhile on the other team: MASS HEAL! here's an open term, guyz I haz teh AV, woot turrets and ammo and oooh look guyz I'm flying without hands!

The PS2 system forces and favours large groups far too strongly and is staring itself blind on zerg combat. The entire game is designed around big groups: look at the only mobile spawnpoint: Galaxy. Look at the amount of control points: only big groups can even consider guarding them all and not getting completely overrun. I don't mind that zergfits get some loving, but ALL loving?

There are tons of other types of players, including solo and smallfits, that you also want to be able to play instead of leaving immediately!

I already noticed quite a few of the better PS1 players losing interest because the game is looking too zergish and unrewarding of personal skill due to being too rock-paper-scissors.

Now, I like rock-paper-scissors, but primarily for vehicles. Ironically, PS2 is doing the complete opposite for vehicles and makes them all into solowhore units that can be adapted for any situation.