MAX Balnace Part 4: Everything AI

[Chewy]

Link
https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/...ing-ai.139234/

Copy



-WARRING-
Long *** post below. There will be no TL : DR. If you don't bother to read, then Im not going to bother to read either. Fair is fair after all.
_end_

First you need to see everything. If you don't read these links then you will not know all of the details.
https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/...t-1-nc.138919/
https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/...t-2-tr.139047/
https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/...t-3-vs.139055/

Once you know the details (or skipped them like a lazy *******) it's time to compare them all. Everything I am using to compare is going to come from those link above. That is the reason I am doing this. To show once and for all just how ****** MAX balance is for AI weapons. Please do not bring up MAX AV or AA weapons into this. They need their own work to get the math for them. I can not do the same tests and use the same numbers for AV and AA that I used for AI. Damage resistances make that impossible, having each AV weapon use its own rules does the same. There will also be NO TL : DR.


With that out of the way, lets start. More or less the hard parts are over with the getting of the data and making it readable. This post is simply to put it all in once place and use it all against each other so see how is the best. Player skill and luck will change things but that is for the better and the worse. The facts are if something can't do well in perfect tests then it has less odds of doing well in the chaos of live gameplay.

First up is this. A sum of the tests results for ranges between 0m and 30m. Please note that NC data is for 0m, 10m, 15m, and 20m and TR/VS data is for 0m, 10m, 20m, and 30m. I was forced to cut the NC data like so because of NC weapons failing to kill with entire ammo pools at 30m for about 3 of the 4 AI weapons.

NC MAX AI weapons. Results in order of 0m 10m 15m 20m.
Scattercannon-
0% miss _______12.24% miss____38.56% miss___53.7% miss
5.96 TTK_______6.57 TTK_______17.51 TTK ____31 TTK
1,677.85 DPS___ 1,522.07 DPS___571.1 DPS____ 322.58 DPS

Hacksaw-
0% miss________39.63% miss ___58.35% miss____68.07% miss
6.01 TTK _______11.63 TTK _____32.33 TTK _____80.66 TTK
1,663.89 DPS ___859.84 DPS ____309.31 DPS ___123.97 DPS

Grinder-
0% miss _______26.9% miss _____49.94% miss ___63.76% miss
2.16 TTK _______7.63 TTK ______16.1 TTK ______32.53 TTK
4,629.62 DPS ___1,310.61 DPS ___621.11 DPS ____307.4 DPS

Mattock-
0% miss ______2.92% miss _____26.46% miss ____46.13% miss
6.3 TTK _______6.32 TTK ______7.52 TTK _______13.26 TTK
1,587.3 DPS ___1582.27 DPS ___1,329.78 DPS ___754.14 DPS



TR MAX AI weapons.Results in order of 0m, 10m, 20m, 30m

Heavy Cycler
0% miss________2.87% miss_____38.15% miss___59.02% miss
5.17 TTK_______5.4 TTK________8.67 TTK______16.4 TTK
1,934.23 DPS___1,851.85 DPS___1,153.4 DPS___609.75 DPS

Onslaught
0% miss________<1% miss_______35.58% miss__52.81% miss
4.8 TTK________5.12 TTK_______11.03 TTK____17.34 TTK
2,083.33 DPS___1,953.12 DPS___906.61 DPS___576.7 DPS

Mutilator
0% miss________<1% miss_______42.92% miss____55.54% miss
5.17 TTK_______5.25 TTK_______9.4 TTK________12.35 TTK
1,934.23 DPS___1,904.76 DPS___1,063.82 DPS___809.71 DPS

Mercy
0% miss________<1% miss_______24.88% miss__41.17% miss
5.63 TTK_______5.3 TTK________10.5 TTK_____12.57 TTK
1,776.19 DPS___1,886.79 DPS___952.38 DPS___795.54 DPS



VS MAX AI weapons. Results in order of 0m, 10m, 20m, 30m.

Quasar
0% miss________<1% miss_______35.23% miss____51.61% miss
5.25 TTK_______5.34 TTK_______8.41 TTK_______14.31 TTK
1,904.76 DPS___1,872.65 DPS___1,189.06 DPS___698.81

Nebula
0% miss________<1% miss______35.36% miss____54.43% miss
4.85 TTK_______4.92 TTK_______9.82 TTK_______14.71 TTK
2,061.85 DPS___2,032.52 DPS___1,018.32 DPS___679.8 DPS

Cosmos
0% miss________<1% miss_______39.2% miss_____53.98% miss
5.25 TTK_______5.28 TTK_______8.96 TTK_______12.11 TTK
1,904.76 DPS___1,893.93 DPS___1,116.07 DPS___825.76 DPS

Blueshift
0% miss________<1% miss_______<1% miss_______12.63% miss
5.65 TTK_______5.79 TTK_______6.55 TTK_______11.88 TTK
1,769.91 DPS___1,727.11 DPS___1,526.71 DPS___841.75 DPS


-------------------------------------------------------

Now to do a side by side for common ranges. Sadly NC weapons can't go to 30m but for 1 maybe 2 from ammo pool limits. So I will limit to 0m, 10m, and 20m for all 3 and only use TR and VS for 30m. The 15m tests for NC will be ignored as there are no TR/VS tests for the same range. The 30m tests I will assume NC is a no contest.

The weapon order for the list will be as such.
Default (Sact, Heavy C, Quasar)
Fast firing (Hacksaw, Onslaught, Nebula)
Big mag (Grinder, Mutilator, Cosmos)
High aim (Mattock, Mercy, Blueshift)


TTK-
0m_________10m________20m________30m
TR>VS>NC__VS>TR>NC__VS>TR>NC__VS>TR>NC
TR>VS>NC__VS>TR>NC__VS>TR>NC__VS>TR>NC
NC>TR>VS__TR>VS>NC__VS>TR>NC__VS>TR>NC
TR>VS>NC__TR>VS>NC__VS>TR>NC__VS>TR>NC


Totals
1st_____2nd__3rd
NC- 1___0____15
TR- 5___11___0
VS- 10__5____1

No contest in my opinion VS MAXes take the lead hands down in TTK.


DPS-
0m_________10m________20m________30m
TR>VS>NC__VS>TR>NC__VS>TR>NC__VS>TR>NC
TR>VS>NC__VS>TR>NC__VS>TR>NC__VS>TR>NC
NC>TR>VS__TR>VS>NC__VS>TR>NC__VS>TR>NC
TR>VS<NC__TR>VS>NC__VS>TR>NC__VS>TR>NC

Total
1st______2nd__3rd
NC-1____0____15
TR- 5____11___0
VS- 10___5____1

Iv seen this before.


I could do one for miss %, but this is depressing. NC as 1, just ONE, place it has a better TTK and DPS and that is point blank with Grinders. NC MAXes are **** according to this data. While TR is the middle of the road AI MAX without having to worry about much at all. VS on the other hand are GODS. Look at the data and you'll see that Tr and VS stats are so close that you can more than argue that they can be equal. Being .0X off in TTK is not a thing one can use to gloat.

I ask again. How the hell does the VS have a bad MAX? No. No, the question is now a "HOW THE ****" not a "How the hell". From what Iv looked at in the GU updates the weapons they have now are damn close to what they had at launch! Some even said VS MAXes got nerfed.

Where is the OP in NC MAXes? I don't see **** that even hints at OP. In fact I see NC MAXes as the worst of the 3 BY FAR! You know what? NC players have been saying this for months now. Now we have proof saying it.

I wait for the debate. But if you guys don't bring your A game and do better than the **** site PS2-stats.com that CAN'T give current data then I feel sorry for this community. Spin this as you can. I hunger for the fight.

(extra edit)

[OCNSethy]

Thanks for all your hard work. I hope that SOE will come to the same conclusion and do something with the NC Max.

[Rumblepit]

Originally Posted by OCNSethy

Thanks for all your hard work. I hope that SOE will come to the same conclusion and do something with the NC Max.

they did their math, and the in game data shows that the tr max is way behind the nc and vs max. nc max can still kill infantry before the player can even say ohshit.
and you think it should be buffed???nc and vs maxes are on par, with tr following way behind.

to bad you cant extract the numbers they use, maxes pulled per faction, kills per max, avg life span, these numbers show nc and vs are balanced, and the tr max is lacking everywhere. you guys even see the damage the tr max weapons do?
we have a max that dual wields smgs lol .

fyi nc maxes still do this

dont even have the chance to say ohshit.

[War Barney]

Originally Posted by Rumblepit

they did their math, and the in game data shows that the tr max is way behind the nc and vs max. nc max can still kill infantry before the player can even say ohshit.
and you think it should be buffed???nc and vs maxes are on par, with tr following way behind.

to bad you cant extract the numbers they use, maxes pulled per faction, kills per max, avg life span, these numbers show nc and vs are balanced, and the tr max is lacking everywhere. you guys even see the damage the tr max weapons do?
we have a max that dual wields smgs lol .

fyi nc maxes still do this
NC MAX Hacksaw tests (outdated) - YouTube

dont even have the chance to say ohshit.

You realise theres math heres show conclusively thats NOT the case and that NC MAXs are the underpowered ones? Would you like to give us YOUR maths to prove the TR MAX is useless cos I'm afraid right now we just have maths proving the opposite

[Chewy]

Originally Posted by Blynd

are you using default or with lockdown and zoe active ???

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Nice work. It doesn't change my opinion that equipping NC maxes with shotguns while depriving them from a decent ranged capability was a bad design choice in the first place, though.

Question: Did you balance tested these maxes with extended mags in mind? Because that should be the norm for balance testing imo.

All tests are done with stock MAXes. Outside of weapons there is no cert options at all used. No extended mags, no abilities, no armor, nothing but bare bones weapons and stock targets. To add one cert option for one MAX I would have to add an option for the rest.

Originally Posted by ChipMHazard

The same old [bad] argument. Yes, shotguns are normally supposed to be effective at close range. No, that's doesn't mean that they get to be as powerful as they have been on more than one occasion, and still kinda are against infantry. At least in the sense of depriving infantry of a chance to retaliate in close quarters.
It was a bad idea at the start to allow scatterguns to one salvo infantry and it's still a bad idea now; some of the level design simply isn't designed around having Scattermaxes hiding behind corners and camping primary/secondary objectives.
Scatterguns being ineffective at range, without slugs, means this "_" much in a Bio Lab fight. Or to put it in another way... Close quarter oriented weapons are not particularly situational when you have to play the objective.

Too bad for NC players that SOE decided to make Scattermaxes weaker against other MAXes, by reducing their ability to lay down sustained fire, instead of trying to solve the "one salvo" puzzle. One could make the argument that making them weaker against other MAXes is a good thing since that gives VS/TR another counter.
Personally I would still prefer it if they just reworked the scatterguns, like having three fire modes for different ranges, instead of constantly trying to tweak their current stats. But that's probably not going to happen because it's F2P.
So yes, based on what I've been told my MAX players with far more experience than myself is that the NC MAX is the weakest against other MAXes.

If NC MAXes are not an equal to TR and VS MAXes but TR and VS MAXes are a counter to NC MAXes then what does NC have to counter TR and VS MAXes? Also slugs in a bio-lab a worse than shot. Let be copy my numbers from the official forums on dual Mattock shot v slugs

Order Shot, slug
0m- 6.3--7.13
10m- 6.32--7.13
20m- 7.72--12.26
30m- 13.26--12.93

For Mattocks shot is far better than slugs for up to 20m and only after that would slugs be a better choice. Then you have to ask are slugs going to do the job at those ranges with how slugs act against live targets. Slugs are not worth it in my opinion.

Then you have the old bio-lab talk of it being a hunting ground for NC MAXes. Here's a video of someone running around a bio-lab with his render distance set to 15m.

There are plenty of places in a bio-lad that go far beyond a NC MAXes effective range even with extended mag.

Originally Posted by Rumblepit

they did their math, and the in game data shows that the tr max is way behind the nc and vs max. nc max can still kill infantry before the player can even say ohshit.
and you think it should be buffed???nc and vs maxes are on par, with tr following way behind.

to bad you cant extract the numbers they use, maxes pulled per faction, kills per max, avg life span, these numbers show nc and vs are balanced, and the tr max is lacking everywhere. you guys even see the damage the tr max weapons do?
we have a max that dual wields smgs lol .

fyi nc maxes still do this
(vid snip)

dont even have the chance to say ohshit.

Did I not post the infantry TTK for the heavy C here yet? (looking) Nope. Let me get that for you.

Sacttercannon v infantry
TTKs
0m- 0ish
10m- .66
15m- 1
20m- 2.3

Heavy C v infantry
TTKs
0m- .52
10m- .79
20m- 1.38
30m- 1.8

Side by side
Order NC TR
0m- 0ish-.52
10m- .66 - .79
20m- 2.3 - 1.38

If you account for lag (.2-.3) and human reaction time (.2) then it's easy to say that a sub 1 TTK can be an instant kill or the target will have around .1-.3 seconds to GTFO and find cover. Then you have to think about moving targets. NC MAXes have very hard ammo limits, TR and VS MAXes can lay down lead if needed.

I see something of balance with MAX v infantry numbers when talking about shotguns and HMGs.

[ChipMHazard]

Originally Posted by Chewy

If NC MAXes are not an equal to TR and VS MAXes but TR and VS MAXes are a counter to NC MAXes then what does NC have to counter TR and VS MAXes? Also slugs in a bio-lab a worse than shot. Let be copy my numbers from the official forums on dual Mattock shot v slugs

All the normal counters. Neither VS nor TR can instantly kill enemy HA, as an example. You won't get a lot of time to fire of that rocket, but you can. Like I wrote it's just something one could argue, not necessarily something I think is true myself.
Never wrote that slugs were better in a Bio Lab. Just that the Scattermaxes' max effective range doesn't really come into play all that often because of the level design.

Originally Posted by Chewy

For Mattocks shot is far better than slugs for up to 20m and only after that would slugs be a better choice. Then you have to ask are slugs going to do the job at those ranges with how slugs act against live targets. Slugs are not worth it in my opinion.

No idea if they are worth it. The devs obviously inteded for them to fill the range gap. Not how I would have done it myself.

Originally Posted by Chewy

Then you have the old bio-lab talk of it being a hunting ground for NC MAXes. Here's a video of someone running around a bio-lab with his render distance set to 15m.

There are plenty of places in a bio-lad that go far beyond a NC MAXes effective range even with extended mag.

So what? Plenty of places where you can force the enemy to come into instagib range. More importantly, plenty of important areas where you can force players into instagib range if they intend to play the objectives. Actually those areas almost always force players into close quarters combat.
Bio Labs are Scattermax hunting grounds.

[Wahooo]

Why didn't you use slugs for the NC max at distance?
I'd kinda like to know where they fit in, not saying they skew the scale but they make a difference.

But I AM saying you were one who was saying the NC maxes weren't OP when they were for months after release till the shotgun nerf... same nerf that hit the mercys BTW which hit the pocket of a lot of TR BTW.

Right now the TTK differences in situations MAX on MAX encounters happen is pretty damn close, back to the balance the game has in most situations. Whoever shoots first gets the kill.

[Chewy]

Originally Posted by Wahooo

Why didn't you use slugs for the NC max at distance?
I'd kinda like to know where they fit in, not saying they skew the scale but they make a difference.

But I AM saying you were one who was saying the NC maxes weren't OP when they were for months after release till the shotgun nerf... same nerf that hit the mercys BTW which hit the pocket of a lot of TR BTW.

Right now the TTK differences in situations MAX on MAX encounters happen is pretty damn close, back to the balance the game has in most situations. Whoever shoots first gets the kill.

Slugs are a cert option. I can't use them for a test without adding some kind of cert option for TR and VS to keep things fair. Also slugs need 20 hits to kill a MAX at 0m. The buffs against infantry isn't worth it when you account for the lost effectiveness against everything else in my opinion.

And yes, I defended NC MAXes at launch and still have tests from then. Though I did agree that Hacksaws back then was a bit much in ROF, but I never used them. I was and still are a pure Mattock user. Back then Hacksaws did this.

MAX v MAX
0m 12
10m 15.8 average
20 56

I not certain of the stats but I think Hacksaws had a RPS of 5. Searching the official forums for something I found that they had a 200ms fire rate. If Im right then a RPS of 5 should be right. That means dual RPS should be 10. Give me a moment.

0m
12/10=1.2 TTK
10,000/1.2=8,333.33 DPS

10m
15.8/10+4= 5.58 TTK
10,000/5.58= 1,792.11 DPS

20m
56/10+12=17.6 TTK
10,000/17.6= 568.18 DPS

Now look at the stats above in my OP. Hacksaws win at 0m but loose at 10m and 20m. They was shotguns back then and did what shotguns do by fucking someones day at point blank at the cost of longer ranges. Look at them side by side.

Order- NC TR VS and for just the fast firing weapons.

0m
1.2--4.8--4.85

10m
5.58--5.12--4.92

20m
17.6--11.03--9.82

Shotguns won at CQC back then and lost at anything else. Isn't that the point of shotguns?

[Assist]

Originally Posted by Wahooo

But I AM saying you were one who was saying the NC maxes weren't OP when they were for months after release till the shotgun nerf... same nerf that hit the mercys BTW which hit the pocket of a lot of TR BTW.

Right now the TTK differences in situations MAX on MAX encounters happen is pretty damn close, back to the balance the game has in most situations. Whoever shoots first gets the kill.

Indeed.

I appreciate him taking the time to do all the tests, but just as before when he was defending the hell out of the hacksaws, I'll take his conclusions with a grain of salt. We all play against the NC MAX and we know how well it does. I'll take my own personal expeirence of 34 days and factor that into how 'bad' the NC MAX is, needless to say I don't see that as even a remotely pressing issue.

[Chewy]

Originally Posted by Assist

Indeed.

I appreciate him taking the time to do all the tests, but just as before when he was defending the hell out of the hacksaws, I'll take his conclusions with a grain of salt. We all play against the NC MAX and we know how well it does. I'll take my own personal expeirence of 34 days and factor that into how 'bad' the NC MAX is, needless to say I don't see that as even a remotely pressing issue.

You say that as an infantry and vehicle player, not a MAX player.

MAXes should be better than infantry, same can be said for vehicles as they have costs far outside of infantry. But when it comes to MAX fights even back at launch NC MAXes didn't have a chance at the ranges TR and VS MAXes can sit without worry. I defended NC MAXes back then because they have SHOTGUNS and shotgun need to be shotguns. If a shotgun can't do shit at CQC (like it is now without fully certed weapons) then there's no chance at any other range.

Im a support and MAX player. MAX is my 3rd most played class at 64 hours including vehicles. You may have 15 hours in a MAX on your main account but you have done nothing with that class. MAX v infantry isn't the big problem it is one but not the main, MAX v MAX is. And if NC MAXes can't handle TR and VS MAXes then what chance does our infantry have against them?

[ChipMHazard]

Originally Posted by Chewy

Shotguns won at CQC back then and lost at anything else. Isn't that the point of shotguns?

The same old [bad] argument. Yes, shotguns are normally supposed to be effective at close range. No, that's doesn't mean that they get to be as powerful as they have been on more than one occasion, and still kinda are against infantry. At least in the sense of depriving infantry of a chance to retaliate in close quarters.
It was a bad idea at the start to allow scatterguns to one salvo infantry and it's still a bad idea now; some of the level design simply isn't designed around having Scattermaxes hiding behind corners and camping primary/secondary objectives.
Scatterguns being ineffective at range, without slugs, means this "_" much in a Bio Lab fight. Or to put it in another way... Close quarter oriented weapons are not particularly situational when you have to play the objective.

Too bad for NC players that SOE decided to make Scattermaxes weaker against other MAXes, by reducing their ability to lay down sustained fire, instead of trying to solve the "one salvo" puzzle. One could make the argument that making them weaker against other MAXes is a good thing since that gives VS/TR another counter.
Personally I would still prefer it if they just reworked the scatterguns, like having three fire modes for different ranges, instead of constantly trying to tweak their current stats. But that's probably not going to happen because it's F2P.
So yes, based on what I've been told my MAX players with far more experience than myself is that the NC MAX is the weakest against other MAXes.

[War Barney]

Well a huge load of data and testing proving that NC MAXs are useless compared to other MAXs... As somebody in my outfit said though, I'm just waiting for the TR/VS to come and say

*I counter your vast amount of testing and data with my random opinion!*

[bpostal]

Originally Posted by War Barney

...
*I counter your vast amount of testing and data with my random opinion!*

Except I don't believe your math and statistics and my random opinion is based on first hand experience.
Math and numbers exist in a vacuum, experience does not.

[bpostal]

Originally Posted by bpostal

...
Math and numbers exist in a vacuum, experience does not.

I'm going to clarify this statement because the underlying conclusion I've reached seems to have been missed.

Fights between MAXes is, for a vast majority of the time, supported by engineers, medics and more MAX units. The math itself is, I'm sure, spot on (or as close to it as it's going to get).

Thus, the TTK that one needs to figure in is not simply 1v1 but the time to kill for each and every single person in the fight. How fast can a MAX clear a room? Math isn't going to help unless all factors are taken into consideration. Even if you think just about the abilities: You can't use Aegis shield without getting shot in the back. You can't use Lockdown (a much more worthless and situational ability than I thought when I first heard we were getting it) without getting C4'd by some MERC. You can't use ZOE without every single motherfucker who can see you shooting at you.

The math is assuming a vacuum, a fair fight. Fair fights don't exist in this game. The simple fact is that at very close ranges the ScatMAX is still close to instagib whilst absolute shit beyond that range.
If this means that the NC MAX is absolutely terrible then you need to take into account the fact that when you're playing the objective, you're talking close quarters infantry combat for a majority of the time. This gives the NC MAX the advantage (Unless Fractures TBH) when defending, and when used in conjunction with MAX Charge, assaulting.

I have no math, I have little to no facts. Just the truth as I see it. This truth, is that all factions have their ups and downs and balance is always ongoing.

[OmegaPREDATOR]

Nice work Chewy.

I like the conclusions. I will continue to use my dual hacksaw in biolab, it's still funny and wait for a smaller COF.

PS : With the new design I will love to have a NS walker 30 max gun. Would be fun to have machineguns as TR !!!