Religion

[Crator]

Originally Posted by Vecha

I respect/understand those who don't believe in a higher power...I just feel depressed thinking there may not be an afterlife.

That's got to be the biggest reason to believe in God. But, if you come to terms with this fact you can obtain a better appreciation for the limited time you do have while you're still alive. And stop wasting it and open you're mind to some things that it was closed to before.

[Vancha]

Originally Posted by NivexQ

The only difference between Atheism and Skepticism/Agnosticism is that Atheists claim to know that there's no god, while Skeptics/Agnostics claim to just not know.

People keep telling us we claim such knowledge, yet strangely none of us ever seem to do so...


Alright, Dawkins and Hitchens tried, but even they qualified their stance.

[Elude]

Originally Posted by WildGunsTomcat

A: They think that believing in God is childish and shows lack of intelligence. Therefore they equate intelligence with lack of faith in anything but their beloved scientific ideals.

I have many of my own beliefs that I would admit are very childish and lack many factual things about them. I guess the difference in my case though is that I don't hold them before evidence, at the end of the day I know they are purely there for my own personal entertainment to pass the time and dream of things that could of been but will never be.

Originally Posted by WildGunsTomcat

B: They have had bad things happen to them, so selfishly they say "If God exists he is cruel because bad things happened to me or other people, so logically if there is a loving God he wouldn't let bad things happen." Which is complete and utter bullshit because we're here to learn a lesson...not be babied and coddled. That's why we were given free will.

I grew up in a family that only knows love for me and they are very religious. All the odds were stacked in favor of God around my life and yet I still came out as a non-believer.

Originally Posted by WildGunsTomcat

C: It's the cool thing to do. Not believing in God, talking down to the religious among us is the "cool" thing to do. This directly relates back to A, which says that if you're a smart person, you don't need a "God" figure in your life because God is a concept for the less intelligent among us, less "cool" among us.

You have it backwards at least in my case. Believing in God is the cool thing to do as I am constantly told by the people around me.

[Warborn]

The idea that not believing in a god is some hip new trend all the cool kids are doing is so weird. But, this is the face of the people who believe in god. The idea that someone could actually, genuinely not believe in their religion or anything like it is so foreign to them they imagine it's just a rebellious phase or something, or done out of spite for some reason. The idea of people just not believing in that stuff whatsoever just doesn't compute.

This, ladies in gentlemen, is what brainwashing looks like.

[Figment]

Yes Wildgunstomcat, you get flak for saying that.


Yet somehow you won't WANT to comprehend why. You may just think it's because it's "cool" or "trendy" to bash Christians or not go with the conservative and be progressive. You have a very rigid frame of reference and you don't seem to understand the logic behind the "Good stuff bad stuff" argument.


You know what's worse? Your "Lesson" argument. You know, when GI JOE had these silly morale bits at the end, they showed: "Cause, (direct!) Consequence, Rationale". ie. they provided a simple framework from which you can learn.

Apparently, according to you, gods randomly deal consequences out for random actions that don't "agree" with teachings but linger till you get punished for it (in effect: christians and muslems, **** and other religious people - particlarly those with less faith in common sense than faith in fate, make up divine conspiracy theories to explain bad things and good things alike == "LESSONS"). Now, if there was some sort of systematic to this, like say, you kill someone out of greed, the next minute an ACME safe falls on top of you EVERY, SINGLE, TIME. Or when you commit adultery, that you get sudden, instant STDs that neither person you slept with has, or you instantly get rewarded for doing a good deed (or over time or after x deeds or whatever), then the (non-)appreciated morality is at least linked, personal and could be derived even without words: you got the consequence for an action and the rationale is somewhat questionary, but obvious.

Worse, in many cases, the random consequence for a random action which is unknown to the victim, is things like sickness or death, due to the nature of these things and the lack of system. There's no learning moment and no learning possible.

Instead, random things happen to random people at random times. Chance? Arbritrary bad things happen to arbitrary people? No way! There must be a reason beyond the natural world, because rain and rock erosion alone could not explain why for instance a rock slide would happen to cause bad stuff to people! Clearly there must have been a reason! A lesson to be learned! (Yes: try to avoid areas in the path of a rock slide by having patrols of geologists map out danger zones, ouch, lesson learned? Oh wait no, maybe they once worked on a sunday?).

Divine Mysterious Ways is "the" answer you would be looking for instead. Sigh. And this is NOT a childish type of reasoning? No, you're right, at least children make some sort of sense, just lack information and make up a bit to fill the gaps or get told how to fill the gaps. Surely that's not comparable? Alright then, only one logical alternative: it's simply utterly retarded and simplistic bullshit.


But to then state that those who LOSE religion blame this on Divine Conspiracy, or rather, lack there off, is just... complete irony. I hope it's not lost on you just how ironic it is. Because I could get more snarky about it.


EDIT: Some would argue the amount of faith has no influence on the good or bad things that happen to you (which are apparently all randomised) to create a different divine "challenge" for each person and only after the final curtain been drawn, the final faith tally is made. This is however completely inconsistent with things like prayers. Which are "arbitrarily answered", or not at all. When they are answered, it's a divine intervention, when they're not, you're... well, maybe you're not worthy, not lucky (so luck is suddenly an issue in the case of bad things), or you have to pray or work harder or stop doing certain things at random to see if that's the cause that you don't or will get lucky. Or worse. Maybe some evil spirits are at work that have it in for you!? D:

Ever heard of the concept of a self-fullfilling prophecy? That's what faith is good at, representing self-fullfilling prophecies that are fulfilled as miracles or divine actions, while every bit of non-fulfilled prophecy is removed from the "reference pool". This is biased selection and misrepresentation. This is how faith really works: only selecting those experiences that fit with the faith frame of reference and ignoring the rest. May or may not include the hope that the 'rest' is simply not fulfilled yet or there was a good, divine reason why it did not happen. Evidence? No need. Prejudice and willful self-delusion is all you need.

[Effective]

Originally Posted by Warborn

The idea that not believing in a god is some hip new trend all the cool kids are doing is so weird. But, this is the face of the people who believe in god. The idea that someone could actually, genuinely not believe in their religion or anything like it is so foreign to them they imagine it's just a rebellious phase or something, or done out of spite for some reason. The idea of people just not believing in that stuff whatsoever just doesn't compute.

This, ladies in gentlemen, is what brainwashing looks like.

Put simply, I feel sorry for people like that. When they don't understand how or why something happens, they attribute it to a supernatural power that has absolutely zero evidence.

[Vecha]

Originally Posted by Crator

That's got to be the biggest reason to believe in God. But, if you come to terms with this fact you can obtain a better appreciation for the limited time you do have while you're still alive. And stop wasting it and open you're mind to some things that it was closed to before.

Oh, believe me, I live life to the fullest. In the back of my mind, I know this may be it. And nothing else. I don't feel I'm "wasting" it on wondering about an "if" of god.

At least...I'm 'wasting' my time as much as we all are here in this thread

[Fenrys]

Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from miracles. Many, or maybe even most or all organized religions have something in common with the Vanu cargo cult.

I won't deny the possibility that some people have had direct experiences with macrobes, benevolent or otherwise, but most formal religious texts likely describe the history of technology developed or shared by non-human intelligence in ancient times.

[duck]

Apparently I am the only Muslim on PSU.
Unfortunately I cannot read all 32 pages on this thread as of now, although I know there are interesting comments. I'd like to read this thread more carefully when I get the time.

If anyone has any specific questions on Islam, or want to know answers relating to God in general from our perspective go ahead and ask or PM me.

[Traak]

Originally Posted by Effective

Put simply, I feel sorry for people like that. When they don't understand how or why something happens, they attribute it to a supernatural power that has absolutely zero evidence.

You believing in time being able to produce anything and everything is no more rational, and no less a choice than people believing in God.

People base their beliefs on their choices, not the other way around.

No one here was here when the universe came about. Further, you are believing what people say, people you have never met, writing in journals you have never had individually verified. You don't even know if Darwin, for example, ever existed. Someone said he did. Did you ever meet him? Have you witnessed every species evolve before your very eyes?

Most of what people believe was written by people long since dead. Everyone believes something. And what they believe will be based on what they chose to believe.

[Traak]

Originally Posted by Fenrys

Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from miracles. Many, or maybe even most or all organized religions have something in common with the Vanu cargo cult.

I won't deny the possibility that some people have had direct experiences with macrobes, benevolent or otherwise, but most formal religious texts likely describe the history of technology developed or shared by non-human intelligence in ancient times.

And your direct personal proof of this is what?

[TheSHiFT]

Originally Posted by Traak

You believing in time being able to produce anything and everything is no more rational, and no less a choice than people believing in God.

People base their beliefs on their choices, not the other way around.

No one here was here when the universe came about. Further, you are believing what people say, people you have never met, writing in journals you have never had individually verified. You don't even know if Darwin, for example, ever existed. Someone said he did. Did you ever meet him? Have you witnessed every species evolve before your very eyes?

Most of what people believe was written by people long since dead. Everyone believes something. And what they believe will be based on what they chose to believe.

True, no human was around when the universe came into existence. However, just because no one witnessed it, does not mean it did not happen. Evidence from that time still lingers. Some of which, such as math, is actually more valuable than a human eye-witnessing the event.

Let's say you own a dog and you leave it home alone. You return and your dog sees you and immediately slinks away. You see your trash is tipped over, with garbage all about, one of your shoes has teeth marks in it, and your deck door's blinds are damaged roughly a foot and a half above the ground, covered with a ketchupy paw print. Now you didnt physically witness this event, but how do you conclude what happened?

Not everyone chooses to believe. Some accept what is true based upon the evidence that has been presented.

[Figment]

Originally Posted by Traak

You believing in time being able to produce anything and everything is no more rational, and no less a choice than people believing in God.

So you are saying there is no such thing as direct evidence for gradual geological formations? No such thing as random genetic mutations that over time lead to bigger changes and entire new species? Because you really should talk to a microbiologist, since they actually develop new micro-organisms through natural selection, by creating different circumstances. Within several generations, entirely distinguishable micro organisms (different inherent qualities) are formed, naturally, in a lab.

Since microbes reproduce very fast and therefore as a species mutate faster, it doesn't require as much time as macrobiology does to evolve. However, the principle is the same. It is therefore not at all far fetched to "believe" in evolution.

It is however not demonstratable that there's even a micro-god. Let alone macro-gods that create universes. Sorry Traak, but you have no argument here.

People base their beliefs on their choices, not the other way around.

No one here was here when the universe came about. Further, you are believing what people say, people you have never met, writing in journals you have never had individually verified. You don't even know if Darwin, for example, ever existed. Someone said he did. Did you ever meet him? Have you witnessed every species evolve before your very eyes?

Your great great grandpa never existed. There. Prove me wrong. You'll use the same evidence I would to show Darwin's legacy. Only Darwin probably left behind more eyewitness accounts and books.

Your god is down to a handful of biased eyewitnesses. Who is more reliable? A scientific community as a whole? Or some iron age religious sekt that eventually was governmentalised by the Romans and formed into Roman Catholicism, which gave birth to various interpretations and rebelling religions of its own?

Hmmm.

Most of what people believe was written by people long since dead. Everyone believes something. And what they believe will be based on what they chose to believe.

The difference is even if you "chose" to do so, you could potentially verify sources yourself or have them be verified and you can verify if it actually vits with random data. However, instead you "chose" to believe in not even potentially verifiable sources and that's completely not related with any data sets whatsoever.

So yeah. The point you are making is one of the most flawed reasonings one can make and is basically down to wishful thinking and deliberate ignorance and self delusion: you don't even WANT to verify anything, so you claim nothing can be verified anyway because EVERYTHING is falsifiable.

I just love it when religious people go into far fetched conspiracy theories to prove themselves right and then wonder why they're not taken serious... If only Occam's razor would be applicable in their minds. Unfortunately, the inverse is true. The beauty of simplicity is not a complex enough answer, there must be a conspiracy theory behind every event. If your expectations include a divine interpretation, then you will never be satisfied with any answer that comes down to "stuff happens for a reason that's non-intelligent nor purposeful, but simply down to cause and effect".

[Figment]

Originally Posted by Traak

And your direct personal proof of this is what?

I like the hypocrisy of you asking that.

[Fenrys]

Originally Posted by Traak

And your direct personal proof of this is what?

No proof here. I just think it might be true based on a few observations and interpretations of scripture.

Book of Enoch:
Chapter 6 - Aliens (the Watchers) plot to create a slave race by mixing their DNA with the local fauna of Earth

Chapter 1 - a warning is given that anyone who defies their alien overlords will be genocided, and only humble servants will be spared

Chapter 7 - The deed was done and technology was shared with the women, but their progeny, the Nephelim, rebelled

Chapter 8 - Technology is shared with the men, but they don't go along with the eugenics program and refuse to only impregnate what they are told to. An alien named Ezekiel is noted as the keeper of knowledge of the clouds.

Chapter 10 - Some different aliens (King of ages), who chased the first ones here to Earth, gave a warning that they were about to fuck up the planet to destroy the other aliens and set their technology back 10,000 years so they could not leave Earth, which was to be their prison, and if they ever wanted to escape, they would be forced to share the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge with the humans and half-humans they had intended to enslave

Chapter 11 - The Ark of the Covenant is gifted to men, a technological energy source that could do work for them. The power supply itself sits in a capacitor with gold cathode and anode and wood electrolyte - the box referred to as the Ark was a battery and a carrying case

Chapter 14 - Enoch the scribe is brought into the King's spaceship, "I went in till I drew nigh to a wall which is built of crystals and surrounded by tongues of fire," where he saw the Throne of God - a larger version of the Ark with a crystalline power source sitting on top it. There were strong electromagnetic effects in the room, and vorticies of plasma being emitted by the power source much like the twisting filaments that extend on either side of a singularity. So the King uses a Romulan warp drive - a stable, artificial singularity - to power His spaceship.

Book of Ezekiel:
Chapter 1 - Ezekeil, the Watcher alien, sees a floating double-tetrahedron made of crystal, rotating within a sphere of crystal, with twisted filaments of plasma extending from either end of it (note that "God" is a translation of Tetragrammaton, or a tetrahedron with gravitic effects). The twisting double-helix of plasma created the illusion of eyes shaped by lightning. It sounded like the "voice of the Almighty", aka the artificial singularity power supply sitting on the Ark.

Chapter 2 - The Lord, aka the King, tells Ezekiel that the Watchers are still being a thorn in His side, and that the result of their eugenics program, the tribes of Israel with mixed human and Watcher DNA, are acting like cold-hearted reptiles and they don't look quite human or quite Watcher either but don't be scared of that. Ezekiel is given the Torah, ie The Old Testament, to deliver to Israel as a warning of what the Ark is capable of so they better not mess with the people under the Lord's protection or else "lamentations, and mourning, and woe" shall be upon them. "And go, get thee to them of the captivity, unto the children of thy people, and speak unto them, and tell them, Thus saith the Lord GOD" "Them of the captivity" is the Watchers, alien prisoners trapped on Earth. The Watcher's children, the children of Ezekiel's people, are the half-Watcher half-Earthling (not necessarily half-human) tribes of Israel that the message is for.

Chapter 6 - the Watcher stronghold gets nuked from orbit and only a few survive, but none of them cry for the dead; they were all bastards anyway.

Chapter 7 - the nephelim and reptilian homelands get nuked from orbit, not their cities, just the farmlands. During the ensuing confusion they steal the Ark and make themselves pharaohs

Chapter 8 - Ezekiel the Watcher is brought into the Lord's spaceship and is told, 'We know you're still doing genetic experiments on the Earthlings' - "and behold every form of creeping things, and abominable beasts, and all the idols of the house of Israel" - and if you don't stop we'll smite you (again)

Chapter 9 - urban combat with energy weapons. "mine eye shall not spare" = my plasma cannon will fuck you up, a 2d representation of a double-helix of plasma looks like an eye. The Lord cleans out the cities of Watchers and half-Watchers, but does not use orbital weapons (to minimize collateral damage?).

Chapter 11 - Those who act cold-blooded are dealt with in a cold-blooded way by the Lord's plasma-cannon wielding space marines ("for them whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord").

And so on . . . I'm tired of writing.