The Impending Magrider Nerf. - Page 6

grimey · 2013-01-26, 01:14 PM

First off I am a Prowler driver. The basic stock prowler sucks at 1 on 1. The gun that makes the prowler is the Vulcan which is a close range weapon.

This coupled with the prowler's speed pretty much make it most powerful up close where you can easily land both shots and decimate with the vulcan. Which is where most prowler drivers go wrong.

Yes as a new tanker logically you want to sit back and snipe stuff which does not work as well as it does with the magrider or the vanguard.

Some people say the prowler is crap because "No tank should have to rely on flanking or getting close up to be effective and getting flanked sucks for ALL tanks... This is like saying "He's got a sniper rifle and I've got a shotgun I shouldn't have to move up to kill him."

If the Prowler is able to flank when properly armed it becomes a total nightmare. The same kind of nightmare most Snipers find themselves in if someone with a shotgun sneaks up on them.

If you can sneak up on magrider with a vulcan you can shoot it twice and one full vulcan clip in the rear and it will explode in about 5 seconds so fast he won't even be able to turn around fast enough to even shot you. I have personally done this multiple times.

Now if new players would hope into a magrider and use it like its not supposed to be used and charge in trying to flank and tries to go toe to toe with a prowler at 10 meters then they would complain about how OP the prowler is because they did not use it in its most effective way like trying to no scope with a sniper rifle.

These differences are what make each faction interesting and I like that the factions are different. The current proposed buff for damage on the prowler is not what the prowler needs more of. What the prowler needs more of is its speed.

Currently top speed on flat land for a stock prowler is 60 Kph meanwhile the vanguard has a stock speed of 55 Kph (granted the vanguards accelaration sucks) and the magrider has 50 Kph (countered by their agility and strafing).

So the prowler's speed bonus of 5 kph on vanguard and 10 kph on a magrider does not really seem like that big of a bonus especially if this is supposed to be one of the biggest features of the prowler and is required to make the best use of it.

If this was increased to 70 stock speed to make up for all the things that the vanguard and magrider do better then the prowler and allow people to close the gap a little faster and maybe people would use it as it is supposed to be used.

I would like it to be a stock speed of 70 and don't think that would be unbalanced. However I realize if they did buff the speed it might get bumped up to 65.

A stabilized turret would be nice for both the prowler and the Vanguard to help with shooting on the move.

innociv · 2013-01-26, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by Higby

We are considering some MBT changes though, including potentially

Removing or reducing magrider front armor since Magriders always have their front facing the things they're fighting, so the front armor bonus scales a bit better for them compared to the other two tanks.

Increasing the muzzle velocity for Vanguard cannons, this would help them be more effective at standoff ranges vs the other tanks, especially the Magrider, and it fits with the NC MO.

Welp.

I have to say I like the idea of more velocity, but I hate that only Vanguard would get it. More velocity is something we've been asking for a long time, and I don't really get why you don't just hotfix it into the game and see what happens since it's a 5 minute change(not including pushing the patch, sure). You can always hotfix it out.
I think there are already consistency issues with balance in this game. I don't want to be able to aim my Prowler's or Lightning's guns anymore because of the slight velocity difference it has from my Vanguard.

Here's the thing:
If you make all AP rounds 300m/s, it will benefit the Vanguard the least, and Magrider the most. The Magrider already has the 300m/s Saron that it's hitting other tanks at 500 or even 700 meters with, while the Vanguard even with the AP gun can't hit a Magrider past about 400m if it sees the shell being fired. So, the Magrider benefits from this the least, as it's already hitting people far away.
Prowler has to aim two shots, so not quite as much benefit.

Standard HEAT and HE should be 225m/s, and the AP should be 300m/s. People won't be saying the Saron is OP with it's 300m/s projectile and no drop if everyone else has a 300m/s main cannon.

As far as the frontal armor nerf or whatever, I couldn't care much really. I think just upping AP cannons to 300m/s will balance it all out and make it more worthwhile given that you lose your splash, and a nerf to Magrider's less or unnecessary.

ChipMHazard · 2013-01-26, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by grimey

Some people say the prowler is crap because "No tank should have to rely on flanking or getting close up to be effective and getting flanked sucks for ALL tanks... This is like saying "He's got a sniper rifle and I've got a shotgun I shouldn't have to move up to kill him."

If you can sneak up on magrider with a vulcan you can shoot it twice and one full vulcan clip in the rear and it will explode in about 5 seconds so fast he won't even be able to turn around fast enough to even shot you. I have personally done this multiple times.

Now if new players would hope into a magrider and use it like its not supposed to be used and charge in trying to flank and tries to go toe to toe with a prowler at 10 meters then they would complain about how OP the prowler is because they did not use it in its most effective way like trying to no scope with a sniper rifle.

These differences are what make each faction interesting and I like that the factions are different. The current proposed buff for damage on the prowler is not what the prowler needs more of. What the prowler needs more of is its speed.

Currently top speed on flat land for a stock prowler is 60 Kph meanwhile the vanguard has a stock speed of 55 Kph (granted the vanguards accelaration sucks) and the magrider has 50 Kph (countered by their agility and strafing).
So the prowler's speed bonus of 5 kph on vanguard and 10 kph on a magrider does not really seem like that big of a bonus especially if this is supposed to be one of the biggest features of the prowler and is required to make the best use of it.
If this was increased to 70 stock speed to make up for all the things that the vanguard and magrider do better then the prowler and allow people to close the gap a little faster and maybe people would use it as it is supposed to be used.
I would like it to be a stock speed of 70 and don't think that would be unbalanced. However I realize if they did buff the speed it might get bumped up to 65.

A stabilized turret would be nice for both the prowler and the Vanguard to help with shooting on the move.

No it's not. A rather strange comparison if you ask me.

Aye the Vulcan is crazy good in close quarters. The problem being that you have to get in range. Not something I've seen happen in the big engagements, but you might have.

Why would anyone willingly go into the range of a Vulcan? It can still outflank and take out a Prowler without having to get right up next to it. That's more about not playing to the strength of your foe than playing to your own strength. In the sense that Vanguards and Magriders aren't forced to only take on Prowlers at long range.

All of the MBTs are made for ranged engagements, medium range and beyond. No tank is designed to only work in close quarters, at least not from my perspective.
The Prowler is a strange mix of different design ideas. An anchor mode (that I guess is mostly designed towards bombarding your target); Basicly useless in close combat and negates the next point. Increased speed; Could be used to close the gap except it's not a big enough increase. Dual cannon; Only reason why they are better the closer you get is because of the recoil.
I don't really consider the Prowler to be better at closer range because of deliberate design choices, but because of the damn recoil and turret jerking.
If they want the Prowler to be an MBT designed for medium-close quarters fighting then they should really have designed it to fill that role better.

It feels like they didn't know which route to fully go. I agree that the proposed Prowler buff won't do squat to better balance it. I wouldn't mind it if they tweaked the Prowler to be more centered around getting in close very quickly, as long as they pick something and stick with it.

I agree that if they want speed to be the Prowler's special trait then they should improve it either passively, increasing it's flat speed, or by giving it the speed boost ability.

Agreed.

innociv · 2013-01-26, 01:58 PM

The effective range on the Vulcan is A LOT further than you think. As far if not further than what the Enforcer's is.

Originally Posted by Ghoest9

Wrong wrong WRONG!!!!!

Magriders are do not have way higher kill rates than the other 2 tanks because Vanu players are better and smarter than the other 2 factions.
Its because the tanks are either better or easier to use.

Seriously your post shows a profound stupidity.
I usually dont attack other posters - but saying your side has equal shipment but better players egregiously wrong and self serving.

You should be ashamed to even post.

Well it is easier to use. More than 95% of players on every faction are very bad, but the Magrider is the easier to use for that 95%.

Assist · 2013-01-26, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by Higby

Someone asked me what the VS got as an empire advantage, that tweet was an answer to that question - not a declaration of impending nerfs.

IF we change the Magrider it wouldn't be any sort of change to it's maneuverability at all, that's what they're SUPPOSED to do.

We are considering some MBT changes though, including potentially

Removing or reducing magrider front armor since Magriders always have their front facing the things they're fighting, so the front armor bonus scales a bit better for them compared to the other two tanks.

Increasing the muzzle velocity for Vanguard cannons, this would help them be more effective at standoff ranges vs the other tanks, especially the Magrider, and it fits with the NC MO.

Prowlers are only performing very, very slightly below magriders in general right now, so we think they're probably alright, but if anything they might get a minor damage increase to AP and HEAT rounds.

We're still playing with these changes internally, so it's not by any means a done deal.

Thanks for the reply.

I don't know that the Prowler needs a damage buff, it seems to outperform the Magrider in damage and certainly does more damage with comparable setups(VPC/Saron vs. HE/Vulcan). The Vulcan top gun really needs to be looked at, IMO.

If you buff the Vanguard that makes sense to me. The biggest issue I have with the Vanguard(having played with it a bit) is the incredibly slow acceleration. It feels like a sitting duck. Muzzle velocity would certainly help in a long-range 1v1 situation, but it's the movement that really hurts the Vanguard IMO. I think even with the projectile speed increase the Magrider will still be able to handle the Vanguard long range due to the Vanguard being an easy target.

Originally Posted by grimey

A stabilized turret would be nice for both the prowler and the Vanguard to help with shooting on the move.

I also think this is a huge part of the difference in performance. I know it would be taking a bit of the physics and realism out of the game, but maybe make it a cert for the Prowler/Vanguard/Lightning?

innociv · 2013-01-26, 02:59 PM

The Vulcan doesn't really need looked at.

The game doesn't need to be watered down.
Balance by mediocrity isn't fun.

neoritter · 2013-01-26, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by ChipMHazard

All of the MBTs are made for ranged engagements, medium range and beyond. No tank is designed to only work in close quarters, at least not from my perspective.

You apparently don't have much experience or knowledge with the M4 Sherman from WW2. I understand this is a real world example, but it's not like speed and getting in close isn't rare in tank fights. Honestly it's silly to want all tank fights to be the same. If everyone was using a tank that was used in the same manner with the same stats than it'd be boring.

And as other said, there are advantages to all of them. When I'm using a magrider, I fear heavy infantry more than I do tanks. Because I have to turn to attack someone it's easy to be baited and get hit in the rear by another heavy, or worse a light infantry sneaks up with some explosives. Sneaking up on turreted tanks is a lot harder, they can swivel their turret and not alter the position of their back. That's the other thing that people forget with these debates. It not just MBT vs MBT it's MBT versus everything. If you weakened the front armor on Mags they'd be fodder for heavy infantry.

ChipMHazard · 2013-01-26, 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by neoritter

You apparently don't have much experience or knowledge with the M4 Sherman from WW2. I understand this is a real world example, but it's not like speed and getting in close isn't rare in tank fights. Honestly it's silly to want all tank fights to be the same. If everyone was using a tank that was used in the same manner with the same stats than it'd be boring.

And as other said, there are advantages to all of them. When I'm using a magrider, I fear heavy infantry more than I do tanks. Because I have to turn to attack someone it's easy to be baited and get hit in the rear by another heavy, or worse a light infantry sneaks up with some explosives. Sneaking up on turreted tanks is a lot harder, they can swivel their turret and not alter the position of their back. That's the other thing that people forget with these debates. It not just MBT vs MBT it's MBT versus everything. If you weakened the front armor on Mags they'd be fodder for heavy infantry.

Well actually I am familiar with the good old Tommy cooker. But WHAT ON EARTH DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH WHAT I WROTE... Ahem, sorry.
Like I wrote before the Prowler doesn't seem to be designed for close quarters, the only design choice which seems to reflect this is the Vulcan.
You really shouldn't use real life examples if you aren't going to be using them correctly. Because the early M4 Shermans were armed with short-barreled 75mm guns they had to get in rather close to Tigers, they also had to use their superior numbers. There's a reason why they designed the M4A1 and the Firefly, they were tired of dying.
So unless you're suggesting that for every Magrider/Vanguard destroyed we have to sacrifice 4 Prowlers it's a rather bad example.

Also the Sherman was never designed to go up against other tanks as their primary function, according to their doctrine, that was the role of the tank destroyer.

There isn't really any advantage to the Prowler. It's a wee bit faster and it has a smaller turret than the Vanguard, but it's also shaped like a brick, has a rubbish special ability, it needs to land both shots before dealing full damage and the recoil/turret jerking is bloody irritating.
The MBTs had more clear advantages and disadvantages in the original Planetside.
It's a combined arms game, but that's not what MBTs should be balanced against when it comes to balancing them against each other.

maradine · 2013-01-26, 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by Assist

I also think this is a huge part of the difference in performance. I know it would be taking a bit of the physics and realism out of the game, but maybe make it a cert for the Prowler/Vanguard/Lightning?

Adding realism to. 2-axis stabilized guns is 60's tech, and we can presume it doesn't get worse over time.

Illtempered · 2013-01-26, 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by innociv

The Vulcan doesn't really need looked at.

The game doesn't need to be watered down.
Balance by mediocrity isn't fun.

THIS!

...and neither does the Mag. I have no problem as HA killing tanks on any empire. Just get a buddy or two with AV and they're toast.

As far as the tank battles go, all the MBT's have their strengths and weaknesses. The Mag is disadvantaged when it's main cannon isn't upgraded, or it only has a driver. One nub can hop in a Prowler or Vanguard and do significantly more damage on the battlefield with stock weapons. When the Mag has a Saron on top with a decent gunner....yeah watch out. Seems like it's working as intended.

innociv · 2013-01-26, 04:26 PM

Yeah I agree the Mag doesn't really need direct nerfs.

The tanks main cannons need more velocity so it's easier to hit a strafing mag.

If I had a 300m/s AP round I could hit strafing mags almost as easy as they hit others with the Saron instead of it being a night and day difference.

But.. saying any nub can hop into a Vanguard or Prowler and do more is silly. The Magrider is by far the best for someone new, it's much easier to use, and you don't need 2/2 to switch seats and fire the Saron.

Figment · 2013-01-26, 05:19 PM

It's not hard to understand that if you can strafe with a stable weaponsplatform while aiming, you will get hit less and hit more yourself than your opponents who cannot and still cannot afford to turn their sides and use their turret advantage because they'll take more damage doing that. And since Mags will die less due to the above, they will live longer and get more kills individually as well.

On top of that, it's likely Eisa, being almost fully purple 90% of the time as determined by continent layout and flows, creates advantageous stats for Magriders by Esamir being full of them all the time.

Had they designed driver/gunners like in PS1 and copied the balance, this would never have been the case btw. Oh and for the record:

http://wiki.planetsidesyndicate.com/...=Vehicle_Armor

^ Check that out.

Sifer2 · 2013-01-26, 05:24 PM

The problem with the Mag is it's strengths are by far the most desirable to have. The proper way to tank is PS2 is to sit far away an snipe stuff an move into cover to repair as necessary. Magrider is best at that.

The proper way to fight tanks is keep your front armor facing them an move a bit between shots to dodge return fire. Mag is also best at that. And its AV turret is ridiculously good.

What really annoys me about Higby's post is he acts like the Vanguard needs a buff but the Prowler doesn't. I don't get this at all. Since on the contrary the Prowler is the opposite of the Magrider. Worst at long range. And worst in a tank vs tank engagement unless its so close that the HA's are killing you anyway. The Vanguard is better just by having a worthwhile special ability alone with the shield. Where as Lockdown is garbage. If Higby's statement is based purely on kill stats he is probably ignoring how Prowlers get a lot of Infantry kills due to the double shot. It's their only strength an they underperform in every other area that matters.

Illtempered · 2013-01-26, 05:26 PM

Originally Posted by innociv

Yeah I agree the Mag doesn't really need direct nerfs.

But.. saying any nub can hop into a Vanguard or Prowler and do more is silly. The Magrider is by far the best for someone new, it's much easier to use, and you don't need 2/2 to switch seats and fire the Saron.

You're silly

Rothnang · 2013-01-26, 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by Ghoest9

Magriders are do not have way higher kill rates than the other 2 tanks because Vanu players are better and smarter than the other 2 factions.
Its because the tanks are either better or easier to use.

Yes, they are easier to use, that's exactly the point I've been making over and over and over.

That's why I think that nerfing the Magrider to lower its effective ceiling is the wrong way to go, because reducing the potential power ceiling for the vehicle to make up for it being easy to use just means that in a fight between high end players that vehicle has no place.

Peoples insistence that strafing directly translates into taking less damage at viable kill ranges is an absolute joke, especially considering that you can get angular velocity while exposing your front armor even with the other tanks. This whole idea that Magriders should just have less armor than other tanks to make up for that is completely stupid. Let's say Magriders take 1 less shot from the front to kill than all other tanks, then you have to always drive a Magrider under the assumption that you need to either dodge at least one shot during a fight with another tank, or your opponent has to screw up armor angles. If neither one happens because your opponent is skilled enough not to let them happen you just lose by default.