Medics, Engineers, Light Assault - should they have limited "juice/glue/fuel"?

[Figment]

Originally Posted by Redshift

because you can't choose how much of everything to bring, if you're doing some organised squad stuff you want your medic to be full to the brim with juice and carry barely any ammo etc.

If you say "medics have 5 revives" then you effectly kill good squad play in favour of zerg and die.

You use a very low number here on purpose I suppose, but that's simply a poor argument. Especially since you black and white the argument by supposing the medic would barely have any ammo left for himself. Check out some PS1 vids that have players with medical power in it: a single canister of 100 juice would be sufficient to hold out for some time. In PS1, one cannister would be sufficient to revive 4 fallen players (25 per player). So with one cannister, an advanced medic could already revive 8 times. Most would carry about 3-4 cannisters and it would suffice for a long time without resupplies. Iirc, one point of med juice would restore 4hp, so you would carry 400hp per cannister to be used either for healing or reviving.


You should understand that in terms of squadplay, this minimizes casualties and injuries on your own side if there's limited healing and reviving possible. Thus this could be argued to stimulate good, careful squad play in the case of medics.



Oh btw, speaking of meatgrinder behaviour, if you have an infinite medic on your hand, you'll be far less careful too and will throw your numbers against a small group without caring how many of them die till you overwhelm them. Ever seen large groups of medics move together? There's no attrition you can use on them since if you die and face them again 15 seconds later, they'll all be alive again if you left one alive. Over and over.

[Ghoest9]

Originally Posted by Figment

I disagree that it encourages more suicidal behaviour (no more than people wanting to get more AV missiles, which tbh, is a much bigger issue than running out of medic juice), it'd be more like what Carbon described: turning into a rifleman until a resupply is made.

Getting yourself killed takes you out of the fight and forces logistics on you and your team anyway. Thus it creates attrition - which currently lacks in a lot of cases. You're of more use staying alive a bit longer. But considering the other argument where long term lives aren't there anyway, it's mostly an issue for people that are able to hold out a long time.




I don't agree that "back and forth gameplay" is bad. For lazy people maybe, but then it can be argued that catering to people using "lazy" as an argument creates bad games in general and doesn't force creativity.

If there's such an increase in deaths, you can always penalize getting killed (and especially killing yourself) with longer respawn timers to the point it becomes more attractive to simply stay alive and retrieve or attain new gear from some other source.

And no, short respawn timers aren't necessarily a good thing for gameplay, as long as downtime doesn't become too long.



That's what discussion is for though, isn't it?

Only named a couple of alternatives before. There's plenty of other ways to do it. You and CarbonCopied named a couple of others.

This thread largely sums up why your ideas are often bad.

You dont understand that fun game play is a key element of a successful long term game.
Long timers as a punishment would make you happy.
They dont make regular players happy.
Things should be limited that adversely effect other play but you should not add limits to simple fun things in an effort to add depth.

In this thread you have
1 Proposed a change that most players of those classes wont like.
2 You have proposed additional punishments if those players then react in the instinctive but undesirables way.

As usual your suggestions and ideas are absurd with respect to a game that actually wants a large player base.


EDIT: Bonus lack of understanding on your part - you accused people who dont want to play the GAME the way you want of being "lazy."

[OCNSethy]

And so it begins....

[Rothnang]

I think the class features are not the right thing to attack when it comes to introducing some attrition into fights. The system shouldn't take away the basic things that make the game fun, rather it should make winning or losing take a decent amount of time, and allow you to see it coming so you can strategize around it.

[Ghoest9]

Originally Posted by OCNSethy

And so it begins....

It always comes to this because his ideas are mostly about taking stuff away from and adding more limits to players.

[OCNSethy]

Originally Posted by Ghoest9

It always comes to this because his ideas are mostly about taking stuff away from and adding more limits to players.

This is between you and Figment... Im just interested in where this thread is going.

While I can see the proposals having some merit in a base fight, I am realistic enough to realise that if the devs nerf these tools, there will be a "great disturbance in the Force... as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. .... "

[Ghoest9]

Also its odd that he didnt ask for infiltrators to run out of stealth.

[OCNSethy]

Originally Posted by Ghoest9

Also its odd that he didnt ask for infiltrators to run out of stealth.

They already do. The only variable there is how many certs you have in your cloak slot.

Not the same mechanic in play, my friend.

[Figment]

Originally Posted by Rothnang

I think the class features are not the right thing to attack when it comes to introducing some attrition into fights. The system shouldn't take away the basic things that make the game fun, [..]

It doesn't take any features away, it merely restricts them to be used more carefully (!). Taking away would mean the complete removal of features. Unlimited healing "doesn't make the game more fun" than restricted healing. :/ In fact, it can make the game excessively frustrating for the party that faces unlimited healing. It's a two-sided argument and I wish people would stop and look at things from the self-interested player point of view (only).

That overconvenience and snuggle the player to death attitude hurt the game enough as is and it is still driving players out of the game every day. It has made gameplay and players boring, apathic, spammy, lazy, selfish, entitled, anti-social, spoiled and incapable of creativity and improvisation, because they're never forced to make due and can always turn to the tools best suited for the job at the nearest dispenser.




The other part of the sentence is true for both unrestricted and restricted gameplay, so I don't really see the relevance as an argument in this particular case.


As for Ghoest9, he's been on my ignore for ages for... obvious reasons. I'm not going to dignify his bullshit, strawmen and ad hominems with a response.

[Silent Thunder]

Originally Posted by OCNSethy

They already do. The only variable there is how many certs you have in your cloak slot.

Not the same mechanic in play, my friend.

Actually it is, because he's talking about the recharging powers having a limited power source too, such as LAs actually running out of fuel to the point of needing resupplying. And engies running out of nanites in addition to their overheat.

[OCNSethy]

Originally Posted by Silent Thunder

Actually it is, because he's talking about the recharging powers having a limited power source too, such as LAs actually running out of fuel to the point of needing resupplying. And engies running out of nanites in addition to their overheat.

So they do, I stand corrected. I do wonder where my head goes sometimes lol

[Silent Thunder]

Also not to get inbetween a good argument, but it's really a pet peave of me when people in a constructive forum use ignore against each other, as it leads to two seperate threads of conversation going on, as one person who is contributing is unable to see what the other is. I dont care if it's argumentative or disruptive as hell, it still causes problems with the flow of conversation.

[DirtyBird]

oops wrong thread

[Mietz]

This might work, however, as long as the AMS sunderer has an infantry terminal and free class-changes are part of the balance, this will only have minimal impact on the battlefield.

It will make AMS sunderers almost necessary in the field to continuously resupply.

(assuming its how you refill your nanites)

[Ghoest9]

Originally Posted by OCNSethy

They already do. The only variable there is how many certs you have in your cloak slot.

Not the same mechanic in play, my friend.

wrong
absolutely wrong
so wrong that you could not even be honestly confused

Jets and stealth are analogous abilities(and HA shields for that matter.)
They are active abilites on recharge timers.

His posts are just requests for nerfs on people who enjoy parts of the game he doesnt.