Religion

[Effulgent]

Originally Posted by IDukeNukeml

Look, this is how I see it bro. And this is just simply an opinion that will also get bashed....

You have a group of people that are so tight-knit that have every answer for the unanswerable that they support each other like a knight supports it's king.

To acknowledge something bigger than them, scares them. They call it ignorance of people who can succumb to something higher, but it in all reality, they are just afraid.

They have either had faith and lost it because or one reason or another or were just never taught any faith at all.. I have said a thousand times that I want just someone to believe in something, but that is just TOO much for everyone here that fights this.

If someone wants to believe that their knowledge is absolute pure truth and nothing can sway them from that, then that is their mind-set. Most people here who are Christian or at least some faith don't want to bother getting into an un-wavering argument with people that see only material things and concious logic. So they dont. I do. I have. Those who have not fought against it are right to not do so, I haven't made a dent. Nor will I ever.

Edit: I will say this though. I apologize for anyone who I've offended and I don't mean to press my religion on you... And I have... But at least, maybe once... Just attempt to believe in something greater than this shitty race.. Please.

Excellent Troll 10/10. would rage again.

[MadPenguin]

Originally Posted by ItsTheSheppy

An agnostic believes that there is a supernatural force that is ultimately responsible for existence, but believes that such a thing is unknowable.

That sounds more like a deist than an agnostic. An agnostic wouldn't make the positive assertion that a supernatural force exists.

The term "gnostic" pertains to knowledge, it doesn't technically have anything to do with belief. But this comes back to different peoples interpretations of the terms i guess. But I'm not sure I agree with that definition of agnostic. Agnostics just claim ignorance on the matter.

[ItsTheSheppy]

Originally Posted by MadPenguin

That sounds more like a deist than an agnostic. An agnostic wouldn't make the positive assertion that a supernatural force exists.

The term "gnostic" pertains to knowledge, it doesn't technically have anything to do with belief. But this comes back to different peoples interpretations of the terms i guess. But I'm not sure I agree with that definition of agnostic. Agnostics just claim ignorance on the matter.

I'm working off the current definition of the word as determined by people whose job it is to write these things down for reference purposes. You're more than welcome to dial them up and voice your displeasure.

[MadPenguin]

Originally Posted by ItsTheSheppy

I'm working off the current definition of the word as determined by people whose job it is to write these things down for reference purposes. You're more than welcome to dial them up and voice your displeasure.

Haha, fair enough

[Effulgent]

Originally Posted by ItsTheSheppy

I'm working off the current definition of the word as determined by people whose job it is to write these things down for reference purposes. You're more than welcome to dial them up and voice your displeasure.

citation?

[NivexQ]

Considering Huxley was the one who coined the term, we should be using his "definition"

"Agnosticism is not a creed but a method, the essence of which lies in the vigorous application of a single principle... Positively the principle may be expressed as in matters of intellect, do not pretend conclusions are certain that are not demonstrated or demonstrable." -Thomas Henry Huxley

Simply put, he's saying that you can "believe" whatever the fuck you want, but don't introduce it as fact without proof.

[Vash02]

Originally Posted by ItsTheSheppy

I'm working off the current definition of the word as determined by people whose job it is to write these things down for reference purposes. You're more than welcome to dial them up and voice your displeasure.

Tell them they are terrible at their jobs.

[NivexQ]

Religious - Believe what I think because... because.

Scientist - Believe what I think because I have facts and logic behind my claim.



Duke. Non religious people DO believe in something. We believe exactly what we've been telling you we believe in for the past 56 pages.

[Effective]

Originally Posted by IDukeNukeml

So, after writing what I wrote and reading through the posts that apparently really riled up the feathers; I figured I'd start talking in the thread with an un-pressuring method.

If by "riled" you mean facepalming over your stupidity, then yes, you riled some feathers.

Originally Posted by IDukeNukeml

I'm sorry I pissed you off (dudes name I can't remember) but I wasn't attempting to lie. I have read multiple times your theories and logic and yes it makes absolute and utter sense, but making sense now with what we know and making sense in 200 years will be totally different. That is all i'm trying to say about humans and their intelligence right now.

There is no guarantee things will be different, stop pretending otherwise. Theories only change when new information is introduced to that area of study.

Originally Posted by IDukeNukeml

Pressing religion has been what I have been doing, primary pressing mine, and I was wrong. I should not have done that and I feel I should youtube a video of me slapping myself for it. What I do want though is for people to understand that this overall something had to come from something and we just don't know what it is yet.

So if something (Humans/world/etc) had to come from something (god), where did something (god) come from?

Originally Posted by IDukeNukeml

I am not saying it was "created" but I am saying that it does most certainly exist. Really though, the entire universe as far as we can see is infinite and knowing that, the possibility of an alien race knowing how it happened is also illogical.

You'll have to clarify because I have no idea what you're talking about here.

Originally Posted by IDukeNukeml

The big thing I am saying in the coolest calmest way I can say it is; Something.... Somewhere, in some way had to design this.

What designed the designer?

Originally Posted by IDukeNukeml

Saying it was always here is a fine argument that will eventually stop. It may take 100 billion more years to fight that arugment definitively, but it will one day stop.

No one here has said it was always here? For example with the theory of the big bang. No one has any idea what was before it, some ideas presented suggest that there was nothing before the big bang, no time, no space, nothing.

Originally Posted by IDukeNukeml

So yeah. I guess this is more directed toward athiests but the fact that we do exist in any form has to count for something. That something out there didn't appear from nothing and if it did, something had to make that nothing for there to be something.

Stop using this argument or explain what designed the designer.

Originally Posted by IDukeNukeml

Not trying to spry more arugments or anger, though I am personally strong in my faith I do understand it may not be correct, but it's my choice to believe in something and it's far better than believing in nothing in my opinion.

Most people don't care what you believe in as long as you don't try to force feed it down our throats. Indeed it is your choice. That being said, just because we don't believe in god, doesn't mean we believe in nothing (look up humanism).

Originally Posted by IDukeNukeml

Edit: I've said a twenty times I wouldn't post back in this thread but it just draws me back.... It's hard to explain but I feel I need to do it... especially when drinking... I'm sorry for all of the rukkus I've caused and particularly apologize to nivex for causing mixed signals when I write. I am not doing this out of greed or personal gain, I am just trying to get one person to see past their own existence.....

Yes, not believing in god means that we're selfish and all-knowing. Please stop assuming that because we don't believe in god we're arrogant self-serving asswipes.

Originally Posted by IDukeNukeml

Ending these type of posts are just damn well difficult... But I do stand firm and I will probably fight this until people stop posting (even when ps2 arrives)... Believe in something guys..... Because it HAS to be out there.

Nothing HAS to be out there. The universe was not created for our existence, the world tries to kill everything on a daily basis and has done a pretty good job so far (with over 90% of the species that have existed on earth being extinct). This isn't a pessimistic or nihilist world view, it's a realistic one.

We don't know everything. That's why we try to find out. We just aren't content with saying "God did it" and leaving the issue alone.

[NivexQ]

Originally Posted by Effective

Stop using this argument or explain what designed the designer.

Just after reading this I went back to reddit and this is the first thing I saw. I love coincidences.

http://i.qkme.me/3pos80.jpg

[Figment]

Originally Posted by NivexQ

Just after reading this I went back to reddit and this is the first thing I saw. I love coincidences.

http://i.qkme.me/3pos80.jpg

Hypocrisy rules!

[MadPenguin]

I'm sorry I pissed you off (dudes name I can't remember) but I wasn't attempting to lie. I have read multiple times your theories and logic and yes it makes absolute and utter sense, but making sense now with what we know and making sense in 200 years will be totally different. That is all i'm trying to say about humans and their intelligence right now.

You are confusing science and logic. Yes, science can evolve. But the logic I am employing is independent of time. Logic does not change with time. If the logic is sound at this moment in time, it always will be.

I am not saying it was "created" but I am saying that it does most certainly exist. Really though, the entire universe as far as we can see is infinite and knowing that, the possibility of an alien race knowing how it happened is also illogical.

The big thing I am saying in the coolest calmest way I can say it is; Something.... Somewhere, in some way had to design this.

Ah, so NOW your using "logic". Lets say for the sake of argument that the premise and conclusion of your argument are logically sound. By your own reasoning you cant use this to believe God exists because logic will be different in 200 years remember?

However, that was just me amusing you, the conclusion doesn't follow from the premise, not everything has a designer. Looking at man made objects, seeing they have a designer and concluding that all things (natural and man made) must have a designer is about as logical as the following:

"Look at driftwood on the beach. The way its arranged is complex, but we know how it got here, we don't need a designer to explain this complex thing. THEREFORE nothing complex (either natural or man made) needs a designer. Therefore nothing is man made"

You cannot extrapolate from man made to natural or vice versa like this. If you do, then you can see it leads one to absurd conclusions.

[Effulgent]

First, I appreciate your change of tack here Duke.

You guys need to stop hating on him now that he's stopped trolling and actually evaluate his arguments objectively.

For instance,the statement proper application of logic will lead you to the same conclusion independent of time is accurate. But if the facts that your logic evaluates change then your conclusions may be different. This is what he was alluding to.

For things outside of the realm of science though, I do have to agree with the others here. People of faith use the cause -> effect necessitates god argument, and then declare by fiat that god exists outside the system and has always existed and always will. If you're going to do that isn't it equally valid to declare by fiat that the universe has always existed and always will?

[MadPenguin]

Originally Posted by Effulgent

For instance,the statement proper application of logic will lead you to the same conclusion independent of time is accurate. But if the facts that your logic evaluates change then your conclusions may be different. This is what he was alluding to.

The problem is you can play that game with literally anything. For example, we have no logical reason to believe in fairies, but that might change. So would you argue against someone saying that fairies don't exist?

This comes back to the point that yes, we cant know anything with 100% certainty, but to then go round claiming that things with heaps and heaps of evidence or logic behind them aren't true... I mean, that just isn't a game I'm willing to play.

Of course gravity could be caused by leprechauns, its not outside the realms of possibility, but there's a hell of lot of evidence indicating that it is in fact mass that causes gravitational fields, so that's what i believe.

People don't use this reasoning for anything other than God, which demonstrates
1)Intellectual inconsistency on the part of those who do this
2)This is not a line of reasoning that is accepted in regular discourse, i see no reason God should be an exception

[MadPenguin]

Originally Posted by elfailo

Yes it is. It's actually caused by invisible zombie hands that come out of the earth, grab onto everything and pull it down.

Well of course we know that, I just decided it would be better for the laymen if we left out the higher level physics.