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View Poll Results: What do you identify yourself as?
Atheist/Skeptic/Agnostic 151 70.89%
Catholic 21 9.86%
Protestant 24 11.27%
Jewish 5 2.35%
Muslim 2 0.94%
Philisophy (Such as Buddhism) 10 4.69%
Voters: 213. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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Old 2012-06-14, 01:00 AM   [Ignore Me] #736
Effective
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Re: Religion


Originally Posted by Zolan View Post
I glanced at the thread, and people made assumptions that they were not mutually exclusive based upon diagrams created by people who also made assumptions.

It's a simple distinction.

Atheist = A God does not exist (100% certainty in belief)

Agnostic = There is no way of knowing. I cannot be certain.

Theist = A God exists (100% certainty in belief)


Agnostic Atheist is simply a term used by those too unwilling to stop calling themselves an Atheist, when they are in fact Agnostic, in that certainty is not present. Therefore, they attach the term and try to place themselves somewhere in-between due to the realization that even they cannot prove themselves correct.

The same is true of those who call themselves Agnostic Theists.

The terms themselves are combinations of positives and negatives. If you do not believe with 100% certainty that a God does or does not exist, you are by definition Agnostic. Nothing more, nothing less. Therefore, attaching the two positions together creates a void identifier.

Gnostic Atheist and Gnostic Theist, on the other hand, ARE possible combinations, therefore that much is correct.

Just because someone made a fancy diagram doesn't mean it's correct.
"insert sigh"

Being an atheist DOES NOT mean 100% certainty that god doesn't exist. That is a horribly arrogant position to hold. Are there atheists who hold this position? Yes, do all of us? No.
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Old 2012-06-14, 01:36 AM   [Ignore Me] #737
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Re: Religion


Originally Posted by Effective View Post
"insert sigh"

Being an atheist DOES NOT mean 100% certainty that god doesn't exist. That is a horribly arrogant position to hold. Are there atheists who hold this position? Yes, do all of us? No.
Been away from this thread for a while. I've noticed this is a common misconception about Atheists. It is kind of annoying since I've seen a few theists try to use the "100% certain" argument. Frustrating. "A lack of belief in deities" takes a while to figure out.
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Old 2012-06-14, 02:45 AM   [Ignore Me] #738
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Re: Religion


Originally Posted by Zolan View Post
It's a simple distinction.

Atheist = A God does not exist (100% certainty in belief)

Agnostic = There is no way of knowing. I cannot be certain.

Theist = A God exists (100% certainty in belief)
Just no.

I have never met or heard an atheist say that there is no possible way a God could exist, maybe there are a couple, but not many. By using this system about 99% of people would be agnostic.

Like I've said, the term "gnostic" pertains to knowledge. So an agnostic is someone who doesn't claim to know for certain.

On the other hand, the "theism" terms pertain to belief. So in other words, someone who doesn't claim 100% certainty but still reckons there is no God is technically an agnostic atheist (which is the clear majority of atheists by the way). This is of course strictly speaking and some would reject this.

The point is that on the contrary to your assertion that "there is no such thing as agnostic atheist/theist", TECHNICALLY the majority of people are.

Basically your overly simple trichotomy is wrong

Last edited by MadPenguin; 2012-06-14 at 02:47 AM.
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Old 2012-06-14, 04:19 AM   [Ignore Me] #739
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Re: Religion


Originally Posted by elfailo View Post
Is it possible to believe that life is without purpose, and believe in God at the same time?
Deists are like that. They tend to view God as a clock maker who put everything in motion by building the clock then left and doesn't touch the clock. That is life is without purpose.
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Old 2012-06-14, 01:30 PM   [Ignore Me] #740
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Re: Religion


Originally Posted by MadPenguin View Post
By using this system about 99% of people would be agnostic.

The point is that on the contrary to your assertion that "there is no such thing as agnostic atheist/theist", TECHNICALLY the majority of people are.
Technically the majority of people are simply Agnostic. That is my point.

You cannot call yourself an Atheist if you do not believe with 100% certainty that a God does not exist. It is at this point that you cease to be an Atheist, as you must accept that you cannot be certain. Because you accept that you cannot be certain, you are by definition Agnostic.

If Atheist and Theist do not entail 100% certainty of belief, then the terms have no purpose, as everyone is simply described by the term Agnostic. If this is the case, then no term exists that describes 100% certainty in belief that a God does or does not exist.

The only alternative is that the terms Atheist and Theist entail certainty of belief.

Gnostic comes from Greek, meaning "learned" or "knowledge."

The term refers only to knowledge and proof, not belief. This is why the terms Gnostic Atheist and Gnostic Theist are possible.

Last edited by Zolan; 2012-06-14 at 01:33 PM.
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Old 2012-06-14, 02:48 PM   [Ignore Me] #741
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Re: Religion


Not at all Zolan.

A theist is convinced there's a god. Even if there's a possibility there's no god, the theist argues that the case is compelling enough.

An atheist is convinced gods do not exist as there is no evidence to support the case and therefore does not belief there's one. You can choose to NOT believe something, this is what atheists do.

That does not preclude the possibility that evidence will one day be found.

An agnostic doesn't want to draw either conclusion and they withold judgment.


The amount of certainty is moot. It's about whether you took a yes or no stance or not.
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Old 2012-06-14, 03:11 PM   [Ignore Me] #742
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Re: Religion


Originally Posted by Zolan View Post
Technically the majority of people are simply Agnostic. That is my point.

You cannot call yourself an Atheist if you do not believe with 100% certainty that a God does not exist. It is at this point that you cease to be an Atheist, as you must accept that you cannot be certain. Because you accept that you cannot be certain, you are by definition Agnostic.

If Atheist and Theist do not entail 100% certainty of belief, then the terms have no purpose, as everyone is simply described by the term Agnostic. If this is the case, then no term exists that describes 100% certainty in belief that a God does or does not exist.

The only alternative is that the terms Atheist and Theist entail certainty of belief.

Gnostic comes from Greek, meaning "learned" or "knowledge."

The term refers only to knowledge and proof, not belief. This is why the terms Gnostic Atheist and Gnostic Theist are possible.
The 'I am 100% certain that gods don't exist' position is called Strong Atheism. The 'I do not believe in gods because there is no evidence for them' is called Weak Atheism. This has been brought up before in this thread. I know it's long and a hefty read, but we are covering already-trodden ground.
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Old 2012-06-14, 03:32 PM   [Ignore Me] #743
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Re: Religion


If you do not believe there is a god you are by definition an atheist. If you do believe there is a god or gods you are a theist. Period. Full stop. Beyond that you can describe whether you're sure about your belief or not, and use terms like strong/weak or gnostic/agnostic, but at the end of the day if in the binary answer field for "Do you believe in god(s)?" you check "no", you are an atheist.
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Old 2012-06-14, 03:59 PM   [Ignore Me] #744
MadPenguin
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Re: Religion


Originally Posted by Zolan View Post
Technically the majority of people are simply Agnostic. That is my point.

You cannot call yourself an Atheist if you do not believe with 100% certainty that a God does not exist. It is at this point that you cease to be an Atheist, as you must accept that you cannot be certain. Because you accept that you cannot be certain, you are by definition Agnostic.

If Atheist and Theist do not entail 100% certainty of belief, then the terms have no purpose, as everyone is simply described by the term Agnostic. If this is the case, then no term exists that describes 100% certainty in belief that a God does or does not exist.

The only alternative is that the terms Atheist and Theist entail certainty of belief.

Gnostic comes from Greek, meaning "learned" or "knowledge."

The term refers only to knowledge and proof, not belief. This is why the terms Gnostic Atheist and Gnostic Theist are possible.
Nein! Nein! Nein! Nein! Nein! (etc)

When something becomes 100% certain, it becomes knowledge. Like i said, theism and atheism pertain to BELIEF. Not knowledge.

In order to answer the question of whether you are an agnostic, ask the question; "Do I KNOW the answer?"
In order to answer the question of whether you are an atheist/theist ask the question; "What do I THINK (believe) the answer is?"

So personally, for the first question i answer "I dont know the answer"
For the second i answer "I don't reckon there's a God"

Therefore, i am an agnostic atheist.

No one defines agnosticism the way you are, just look at the reaction you are getting.

Last edited by MadPenguin; 2012-06-14 at 04:01 PM.
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Old 2012-06-14, 05:07 PM   [Ignore Me] #745
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Re: Religion


Ah good, now that you have all given statements to my liking as I had hoped, I can make my original point regarding the poll.



The poll asks what you identify yourself as (Religion). In reference to the title of the thread and OP post.

Religion is a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe.

Because Atheism is a set of beliefs regarding the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, it's use in the poll is justified.

Agnosticism, however, is not a religion. Agnosticism is a epistemology regarding knowledge and logical reasoning.

T.H. Huxley - "Agnosticism is not a creed but a method, the essence of which lies in the vigorous application of a single principle. Positively, the principle may be expressed as in matters of intellect, follow your reason as far as it can take you without other considerations. And negatively, in matters of the intellect, do not pretend that matters are certain that are not demonstrated or demonstrable."

Given that Agnosticism is not a religion, it should not be included in the poll in any way whatsoever.
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Old 2012-06-14, 05:54 PM   [Ignore Me] #746
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Re: Religion


Originally Posted by Zolan View Post
[Beginner at Debating Religion]
Go read this and come back.

You're essentially in the same boat as Duke at this point.
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Old 2012-06-14, 06:09 PM   [Ignore Me] #747
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Re: Religion


Originally Posted by Sirisian View Post
Did you really just use Reddit as a source for justification?
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Old 2012-06-14, 06:27 PM   [Ignore Me] #748
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Re: Religion


Originally Posted by Zolan View Post
Did you really just use Reddit as a source for justification?
Someone didn't read it. Biased opinion about a website etc.
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Old 2012-06-14, 06:47 PM   [Ignore Me] #749
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Re: Religion


Originally Posted by Effective View Post
Someone didn't read it. Biased opinion about a website etc.
I read the statements on the list FAQs that were relevant to the arguments.

I agree with the majority of the information, but disagree on several key points, primarily those involving grammar and definition.

Regardless, I hope you didn't just imply Reddit was a non-biased source with a straight face...

"Welcome to r/atheism, the web's largest atheist forum. All topics related to atheism, agnosticism and secular living are welcome here."

Last edited by Zolan; 2012-06-14 at 06:52 PM.
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Old 2012-06-14, 06:55 PM   [Ignore Me] #750
Warborn
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Re: Religion


Originally Posted by Zolan View Post
Because Atheism is a set of beliefs regarding the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, it's use in the poll is justified.
Atheism says nothing about a person other than that they do not believe in god(s). It says nothing about how you think the universe started, if it did start, its purpose, the purpose of life, or any other such things. My one-year-old niece is an atheist. My brother who has Down's syndrome is an atheist. And Richard Dawkins is an atheist. None of those individuals share a common opinion on what the nature, or purpose, of the universe is, and yet they all are absent a belief in god and therefore are atheists.

Anyone who has explained atheism to you and suggested it makes claims about the universe beyond whether a god exists has misled you.
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