Warning, very unpopular opinion! Why kill-cam desperately needs to return - Page 3

Ertwin · 2013-08-18, 05:32 AM

The flash of red shows which direction shots are coming from, so whenever you die, you should have a good idea of where the kill shot came from.

Crator · 2013-08-18, 07:25 AM

Originally Posted by Ertwin

The flash of red shows which direction shots are coming from, so whenever you die, you should have a good idea of where the kill shot came from.

^ This. I say no to the type of kill cam you are asking for as well. Just watch the hit detection indicator and next time you spawn look in that direction while hiding. Watch for the shooter in that direction and you'll find him. Simples....

Hmr85 · 2013-08-18, 07:33 AM

I have to agree with everyone else. We had a huge discussion about this wayyyy back when during tech test and it was 20+ pages long. Kill cam is a absolute NO for me.

ketarakh · 2013-08-18, 05:34 AM

"Newbs should suffer" and "Good riddance" attitudes is bad for every multiplayer game and eventually lead to single server populated with hardcore nolifers with maxed out BR. Which is actually not bad for them but frustrating for everyone else. Like late PS1.

ChipMHazard · 2013-08-18, 07:35 AM

Originally Posted by ketarakh

"Newbs should suffer" and "Good riddance" attitudes is bad for every multiplayer game and eventually lead to single server populated with hardcore nolifers with maxed out BR. Which is actually not bad for them but frustrating for everyone else. Like late PS1.

Agreed.

I can certainly see the point about giving players more information about what killed them and what they did wrong, besides just playing. Of course a lot of new players are going to be confused the first time they get drop podded in, at least it doesn't drop you in automatically anymore (?).
You drop in, get killed and the only information you have as to what killed you is the death screen. You don't want new players just quitting out of frustration.
I also agree that there are a lot of angles from where someone can kill you, a lot of angles. That of course is mostly about level design.

A killcam would make it harder for someone to camp on a tower, or in other hiding spots in bases. It would show you where exactly an infil sniped you from (Not sure that's even nessecary given how it's not that hard to figure out, given enough experience of course. Which new players probably don't have.) A killcam wouldn't nessecarily make someone able to avoid getting camped, just because you know what to look for doesn't mean you can do anything abou it.
It would also make silencers useless (Unless using it would remove the killcam) and make it a lot harder for groups to pull off sneak attacks.
It would make using trees or other places of cover where you can't freely move around a lot less valid.
I could see one thing becoming a real problem; the death cam being used as a reconnaissance tool, which might hurt outfit and squad gameplay.
If you're being farmed by an organized group or a zerg then knowing where you were killed from isn't going to be much of a help, then again you would probably already know where they are.

I don't see any really compelling arguments for the use of a killcam to provide players with more information about how they died, but I do agree that giving players more information would be a good thing as I see PS2 at times being a very frustrating experience, epsecially for new players.
So basicly, I somewhat agree with the premise but not the proposed solution. I don't see the positives of the killcam outweighing the negatives.

Rolfski · 2013-08-18, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by ChipMHazard

Agreed.
A killcam would make it harder for someone to camp on a tower, or in other hiding spots in bases. It would show you where exactly an infil sniped you from (Not sure that's even nessecary given how it's not that hard to figure out, given enough experience of course. Which new players probably don't have.) A killcam wouldn't nessecarily make someone able to avoid getting camped, just because you know what to look for doesn't mean you can do anything about it.

Exactly my point, Kill-cam doesn't necessarily prevent you from being camped in a tower. If anything, it teaches you the typical spots people can kill you from and helps you become a better tower player. And of course everybody in this forum truly hates this because we have all learned it the hard way. But that's exactly the point of a kill-cam: It provides a short cut for newer players too easier bridge the gap with BR100 players, which is what this game is in dare need of.

To us veterans this may all sound unfair but every month the skill ceiling in this game gets higher and higher. Starting as a new player has become many times harder since the game has launched. Not only because of the added content and complexity but mostly because the players you're up against now are way, way better. It already has gotten to a level that air has basically become a no-go zone now for anybody but top ace pilots.

If you're not giving newer players the tools to progress faster, than this game basically becomes a ghost town for hardcore players only.
In the end, kill cam really doesn't hurt hardcore veterans, they will get their kills anyway. Nor does it completely break the tactical aspect of this game thin foiled veterans want us to make believe. If anything, it discourages the horrible farming mechanics somewhat.

It would also make silencers useless (Unless using it would remove the killcam)

No it wouldn't. Not showing up on the minimap still means you can shoot multiple targets while staying undetected for the other players.

and make it a lot harder for groups to pull off sneak attacks.

You will likely have spotted that squad anyway before dying but if kill-cam footage reveals a "shadow squad" it will likely be spotted on the mini map (red dots) or map (enemy 1-12 => 12 - 24) anyway. Not a game breaker in my book.

It would make using trees or other places of cover where you can't freely move around a lot less valid.

Why not? Staying concealed is still as important until you engage. You might actually argue that kill-cam adds a tactical element to the game that forces you to think before you engage: Am I going in and reveal myself or will I let this one slip and stay concealed?

I could see one thing becoming a real problem; the death cam being used as a reconnaissance tool, which might hurt outfit and squad gameplay.

Hardly likely. If you recon and die in front of an enemy Sunderer or squad, you probably have spotted it anyway before you died. Chances that a kill-cam will reveal any new, crucial information is slim at best and certainly not a game breaker. If anything, it promotes for teams to stay more mobile and use fire discipline if they want to stay hidden.

Originally Posted by camycamera

not to mention, i have not seen many people at all saying "who and what killed me? i want a killcam" at all, so i very much doubt it will be put in, especially with the large amount of backlash it received back during alpha tasting or whenever Higgles showed it off quite some time ago.

Believe me, this game has way too many "How the hell did he get me?" - moments for a kill cam to not have its use. I wasn't there in alpha but I doubt if kill-cam ever got a fair chance in this game then. It's got a COD stigma all over it and of course we all know how cool it is to shite on COD.

Wahooo · 2013-08-18, 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfski

I wasn't there in alpha but I doubt if kill-cam ever got a fair chance in this game then. It's got a COD stigma all over it and of course we all know how cool it is to shite on COD.

OK, how about this, I will shit on Kill Cam NOT because it is cool to shit on COD, BUT because the kill cam is one of the reasons I DO SHIT ON COD. They're bad and dumb down the game that fucking simple.

Whatever little tiny amount of help this could be to newbs who I guess must be incapable of learning how to develop awareness and need this kind of crutch, is FAR surpassed by the massive increase in knowledge that directly equals power that a kill cam gives to an already good player. That same kill cam you think is good for new players is going to get them wrecked by better players.

Hell a huge part of PS1's limited death cam (3rd person panning around your body) was to sacrifice one guy to run into a Gen hold or cap point to relay info on how many and what kind of troops are in there. Who gets more out of that kind of thing? A single new player that just took a WTF rocket to the face or the experienced organized squad?

camycamera · 2013-08-18, 07:36 AM

i rarely have a hard time figuring out where i got shot from. if i get killed by a sniper without knowledge of its location, i think it would be pretty logical to not go to the spot i got killed from last time, and take precaution by moving fast and using cover.

also, tracer fire tells us allot of what(and where) is shooting me.

not to mention, i have not seen many people at all saying "who and what killed me? i want a killcam" at all, so i very much doubt it will be put in, especially with the large amount of backlash it received back during alpha tasting or whenever Higgles showed it off quite some time ago.

AThreatToYou · 2013-08-18, 08:34 AM

PlanetSide has always had one of the most massive entry barriers. I want to see that reduced; it really hurts the game. I will vote yes to kill-cams only on spotted enemies.

One time, I played without nanoweave. I got stomped. Hard. I had to ask myself, "Is this the game all those newbs/noobs play? I would hate it. I would quit." PlanetSide 2 is probably much more boring than it seems to a player who dies so fast because they don't understand the game yet. An implant that warns a player whenever they are being looked at would also go a long way, more for new players than veterans.

also, anything to reduce the amount of snipers in this game

Lonehunter · 2013-08-18, 09:36 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Therefore, the highly unpopular kill-cam needs to return imo.

Everything you said before this line, really had nothing to do with this line.

I'm sorry but you are looking for a different game mate. Someone killing you 5 times inna row because you can't find them isn't "farming" here. If you think they're camping you have multiple options for radar detection through vehicles, and Infils can detect. Not every class/vehicle can do everything, so you have to be versatile or accept that certain things are for certain roles.

Camping sucks, in every other shooter it's considered cheap. But in Planetside there are spots covered in shadow, spots with a perfect camoflauge backdrop behind you. As an Infiltrator I camp constantly, the whole point of their class is gaining the advantage through stealth, and I love taking advantage of pissed off people who just keep charging the same area over and over.

I fully acknowledge the amount of information that comes through a proper kill cam showing a recording of the death either through the enemy's eyes or in 3rd person around him. But Planetside 2 is the ONLY MMO and FPS...a lot of people don't understand how normal FPS mechanics can hurt the MMO part. With a kill cam every single strategy would be revealed. You'd know where every sniper was hiding, how far every soldier was from you when he killed you, how many of his team where around him when he did it, you could even see bonus information like a Sunderer in the background behind a rock you couldn't see from your angle. My point is this isn't really a First Person Shooter, it's a First Person Wargame. It's an MMO, it takes navigation, exploration, and coordination to get your intel here.

Plenty of players are all ready improving every day. There are many top notch pilots/soldiers in different fields on my server. Just because it makes things easier for new players and hinders experienced players doesn't make it a good thing, you have to have balance and most people think we all ready have it. This was a huge topic in beta and it was discussed for weeks. What we have now is a final version of a few implementations I think.

Rolfski · 2013-08-18, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by Lonehunter

Camping sucks, in every other shooter it's considered cheap. But in Planetside there are spots covered in shadow, spots with a perfect camoflauge backdrop behind you. As an Infiltrator I camp constantly, the whole point of their class is gaining the advantage through stealth, and I love taking advantage of pissed off people who just keep charging the same area over and over.

I fully acknowledge the amount of information that comes through a proper kill cam showing a recording of the death either through the enemy's eyes or in 3rd person around him. But Planetside 2 is the ONLY MMO and FPS...a lot of people don't understand how normal FPS mechanics can hurt the MMO part. With a kill cam every single strategy would be revealed. You'd know where every sniper was hiding, how far every soldier was from you when he killed you, how many of his team where around him when he did it, you could even see bonus information like a Sunderer in the background behind a rock you couldn't see from your angle. My point is this isn't really a First Person Shooter, it's a First Person Wargame. It's an MMO, it takes navigation, exploration, and coordination to get your intel here.

You're over-romanticizing MMO and stealth play. This is not really a traditional MMO with beautiful hidden secrets to explore that kill cam would brutally uncover. It's just a FPS with advanced levelling where kill-cam reveals skill, farming tactics and hiding spots, which is all a good thing.
Revealing skill doesn't mean you can copy it.
Revealing tactics equals the playing field somewhat, which is very badly needed in this game, plus it prevents farming somewhat.
Revealing hiding spots is a good thing as well because this game has literally millions of them, almost impossible to come by for new players if they have to discover these all on their own.
And in case it reveals a Sunderer, guess what? Next time make sure to don't be an idiot and shoot in front of a Sunderer. Btw I think Sunderers should have cloak but that's a whole different discussion.

This whole notice of kill-cam not allowing you to play stealthy and camp I just don't buy. There are a million places to hide and camp from, just move on to the next spot after shooting someone, which is something you should probably be doing in the first place if you want to play it safe, kill-cam or not.

Carbon Copied · 2013-08-18, 10:37 AM

Kill cam isn't needed if people are more aware of their surroundings: if I'm shot or moving across open ground I tend to think to myself "where would I be?" and 9 times out of 10 where I would be someone is or has tried their luck from; if they're not then it doesn't change anything because I've already checked a potential spot.

That aside though in a game with lasers, tracers and vapour trails do you really need that much more of a visual cue where you're getting shot from? There's visual cues and there's letting the game play itself for you with a big fat /engageeasymode; kill cam is the latter of the two..

Taramafor · 2013-08-18, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfski

And in case it reveals a Sunderer, guess what? Next time make sure to don't be an idiot and shoot in front of a Sunderer. Btw I think Sunderers should have cloak but that's a whole different discussion.

One flaw with your logic. The net's full of idiots. And newer people will defiantly be just that 'till they know better.

Sun hides behind rock. Sun deploys. New player opens fire from behind said rock alerting the enemy to his position. Now without killcam, that new person could move and get killed somewhere else and not have the sun detected. With killcam people would know.

So no. No killcam. Period. I've played enough games with that. Believe it or not stealth (and killing stealthy) is a (minor) part of the game and is a tactic like any other.

Person A kills from high angle. Person B sees on killcam. Person A had a nice drop on the enemy 'till then. Person A gets raped and dies.

Or how about getting shot by a tank and then seeing exactly where it is when you didn't see it? I don't see why the driver should be punished for driving good enough to not be seen and kill me (which has happened). You're not in a zerg 24/7 and the times that you're out of one a killcam will certainty be unfair for both sides. It would take away the fun factor of smaller engagements. Say what you will but smaller fights can and do happens and are no less fun (and for that matter not as difficult as larger fights most of the time which helps newer players).

I'm all for giving newer players a helping hand but this is not the way to do it. We have a VR. Let's use it for more then target practice. Have cover highlighted and what covering fire can do. Point out good vantage points and places of high cover where one can get a drop on an enemy. That kind of thing. Only by having these things pointed out can newer people get better. I've learned it myself as well as from other people.

In the end it's up to us, the players, how to help other players. I've seen elites kill of games with their noob none-friendly attitude. I've also seen games work out better because, guess what, people weren't being dicks and were actually helping each other and talking to each other without the noob/troll/insulting banter that goes on in other games. It's easy to try and find a quick fix but in the end we have to put in the effort for ourselves and for others to get the most out of this game.

A better approach would be to do more in VR then just shoot stuff. I've complained myself that there's no part that covers hacking or even what to hack which almost made me neglect infiltrator (no killcam will fix that). Nor are there spots pointed out which could be used for cover or how covering fire can be used. Nor is there a part for turrets, deployed or not (which ties in to covering fire nicely).

But this game is still being improved. Hopefully VR will improve and therefor help the newer players. What's really needed is all of this in VR and not just when a new character is made. It should be able to be accessed at any time.

Rolfski · 2013-08-18, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by Taramafor

One flaw with your logic. The net's full of idiots. And newer people will defiantly be just that 'till they know better.

It's a valid point and that's why I'm in favour of making a Sunderer more idiot-proof by giving it cloak abilities. I consider Sunderers way too vulnerable atm (especially since the still OP Harasser) and therefore cloaking abilities wouldn't make it unbalanced.

Originally Posted by Taramafor

Person A kills from high angle. Person B sees on killcam. Person A had a nice drop on the enemy 'till then. Person A gets raped and dies.

This is exactly the mechanic this game badly needs. You can have a drop on your enemy for one time only. After that, you move to your next camping position. If you however choose the farming route and stay, it becomes a risk vs reward story where every additional kill increases the risk of you being hunted and taken out: So no more 50+ farm kill streaks in a Prowler or Harasser.

It would take away the fun factor of smaller engagements. Say what you will but smaller fights can and do happens and are no less fun.

I don't see how this would take out the fun factor in smaller engagements. If anything, it would make these small battles more mobile and therefore probably more exciting. You pop out, make a kill, move to the next location and repeat. Smaller engagements would probably be a way more dynamic affair with factions actively manoeuvring all the time to get a drop on the enemy.

We have a VR. Let's use it for more then target practice.

Here I agree. VR drastically needs to step up in its potential to prepare for real war: Moving targets, being able to pull other factions only your outfit mates can take down, etc.
By no way this is sufficient though to tone down the horrible farming mechanics in this game and the ever increasing skill gap.

In the end it's up to us, the players, how to help other players.

Here I agree too and SOE should provides us tools to do that.
But the thing is that 80% of the new players probably just start as a lone wolf, expecting some instant BF3-like game play, get absolutely raped and never return again. The game in itself needs to have the mechanisms to encourage people to improve. Something the current death screen completely fails to do.

Ghoest9 · 2013-08-18, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfski

You're over-romanticizing MMO and stealth play. This is not really a traditional MMO with beautiful hidden secrets to explore that kill cam would brutally uncover. It's just a FPS with advanced levelling where kill-cam reveals skill, farming tactics and hiding spots, which is all a good thing.
Revealing skill doesn't mean you can copy it.
Revealing tactics equals the playing field somewhat, which is very badly needed in this game, plus it prevents farming somewhat.
Revealing hiding spots is a good thing as well because this game has literally millions of them, almost impossible to come by for new players if they have to discover these all on their own.
And in case it reveals a Sunderer, guess what? Next time make sure to don't be an idiot and shoot in front of a Sunderer. Btw I think Sunderers should have cloak but that's a whole different discussion.

This whole notice of kill-cam not allowing you to play stealthy and camp I just don't buy. There are a million places to hide and camp from, just move on to the next spot after shooting someone, which is something you should probably be doing in the first place if you want to play it safe, kill-cam or not.

No - he like most people here appreciates why this game isnt COD.

You dont.

You are asking for a competely differnt game - I think the issue is you.