ESF Air to Air Feedback for Devs

Hamma · 2013-05-08, 08:41 PM

Stardouser · 2013-05-08, 08:45 PM

How about redesigning air so that instead of hover jockeying jets dogfight at speed using maneuvers somewhat similar to real life? Similar is the key word here, shooting for actual realism is not the idea.

That said, as for weapons, we have guns and short range heatseekers, radar and longer ranged BVR is really the only thing that has any RL parallel that we don't have.

CaptainTenneal · 2013-05-09, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by Stardouser

How about redesigning air so that instead of hover jockeying jets dogfight at speed using maneuvers somewhat similar to real life? Similar is the key word here, shooting for actual realism is not the idea.

That said, as for weapons, we have guns and short range heatseekers, radar and longer ranged BVR is really the only thing that has any RL parallel that we don't have.

Absolutely, dogfighting has been reduced to two wildly jerking around an imaginary sphere, looks ridiculous. Chasing/fleeing through canyons and forests would be more realistic and fun.

Boildown · 2013-05-09, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by CaptainTenneal

Absolutely, dogfighting has been reduced to two wildly jerking around an imaginary sphere, looks ridiculous. Chasing/fleeing through canyons and forests would be more realistic and fun.

Actually it reminds me a lot of the dogfighting in the re-imagined TV series Battlestar Galactica. Except that the ESFs are mostly on rails while the Colonials and Cylons could point their craft independent of their direction of motion.

That said, just about any WW2 era fighter could crush an army of ESFs. They are so slow, have terrible visibility out of the cockpit, no radar worth a damn (on par with most but not all WW2-era fighters). If I had a Spitfire V or later I would never lose a single engagement even at 5 to 1 odds against. And that technology is 70 years old. The ESFs seem positively anachronistic instead of futuristic. They only futuristic thing they have is self healing.

Sunrock · 2013-05-17, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by Stardouser

How about redesigning air so that instead of hover jockeying jets dogfight at speed using maneuvers somewhat similar to real life? Similar is the key word here, shooting for actual realism is not the idea.

That said, as for weapons, we have guns and short range heatseekers, radar and longer ranged BVR is really the only thing that has any RL parallel that we don't have.

If all ESF was "nerfd" to the handling of the mossy as the mossy drops as a stone (with speed frame) if you go under 100km you would get that.

But I don't think there should be any new weapons for ESF dogfighting as that would just make things that are balanced now unbalanced.

typhaon · 2013-06-06, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by Stardouser

How about redesigning air so that instead of hover jockeying jets dogfight at speed using maneuvers somewhat similar to real life? Similar is the key word here, shooting for actual realism is not the idea.

That said, as for weapons, we have guns and short range heatseekers, radar and longer ranged BVR is really the only thing that has any RL parallel that we don't have.

Yup... I think air balance is more affected by the (still) supreme maneuverability of ESF/Liberators, than any particular weapon issues - or the need for new weapons.

Give those aircraft more normal flight mechanics and I think you'll have a lot more room for adjusting weapon balance.

However... as someone that isn't very good at air-combat, but does well in the other parts of the game - my biggest problem is finding a balance in mouse sensitivity. I feel like I'm constantly either not sensitive enough to be able to FLY like I need.... or too sensitive that aiming becomes very hard for air-to-air situations.

I haven't found A2A missiles to be particularly useful in overcoming that issue.

FWIW - I'm also flying the reaver.

Dragonskin · 2013-05-08, 08:47 PM

Something like this Protoss carrier haha.

WSNeo · 2013-05-08, 10:42 PM

Semi-active Air-to-Air Missile (SAAM):

Hits the air target as long as it remains in the SAAM Reticule

Similar to the weapon used here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...m8XIlJg#t=265s

Advanced Long-ranged Air-to-Air Missile (XLAA):

Locks onto up to four targets within a long range, the downside would be that that could be countered by flares and possibly have a slower base lockon timer (Requiring people to cert into reducing the lockon time)

Advanced Medium-ranged Air-to-Air Missile (XMAA):
Locks onto up to four targets within a medium range (The tradeoff could be a higher damage capacity)

Ace Combat list of weapons:
http://acecombat.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Weapons

Ziggypop · 2013-05-08, 10:31 PM

In a game of logistics that Planetside 2 is (or should be-organized groups moving around faster than zergs), quickly getting players from place to place should be one of the primary factors in determining the success of a push though the upcoming "rush lanes". Air should the the means by which players are able to be moved around the fastest. Gal drops from one lane to the next should be the best way to attack or defend heavily defended or besieged bases. This should not be possible if one team has air superiority.

Sadly, ground AA offers the best AA there is, removing the need for ESFs to interact in larger battles- interactions that would lead to fun dynamics like dogfighting and Gal hunting/defending. Because of this and how well they excel at taking out unguarded ground troops, ESFs will dominate smaller to medium sized fights- until someone pulls a burster max and scares the ESF off. This dynamic is not fun for anyone involved. Picking off defenseless ground troops is not challenging, nor is pulling a burster only to see your only available target fly off into the distance- still alive (leaving that poor burster max with no more targets).

Hard counters are not fun, having no option for counter play is not fun, not being able to engage in large battles (or rather, not having a large impact on them) is not fun.

Nerf the Burster max (range, velocity or damage), Nerf the rocket pods (capacity, damage, or just allow ESFs to carry only one weapon), Nerf hovering, increase ESF, liberator speed, Buff damage done by small arms fire to Air, add damage degradation at range to Liberator bombs, prevent spawning in a lane you are not closest to (require transport to battles, not "/suicide" to the next battle), reward Gal pilots with xp for dropping players in specific hexes that are selected before takeoff.

Adding a shiny new toy for aircraft will not make the lack of an air "meta" any better. Move the role of air away from ground harassment to an enabler of logistics and you will see a larger need for dogfighting and escorting (and thus a need for your new AA specific ESF weapon)

That said: The two roles currently filled are a close range, offensive weapon (rotary) and a long range, defensive weapon (A2A missiles). The only other role I can see would be a AOE weapon with an arming time- after which clicking again would detonate the missile/dart/octopus, medium damage (maxdmg:1/6 of an ESF health), low rate of fire(largely influenced by the arming time), will dud if it contacts the ground: useful for engaging large groups of clustered enemy aircraft zerging together before attacking with a rotary.

LoliLoveFart · 2013-05-08, 10:43 PM

I would love to see more A2A options for ESFs, the current A2A lock missle is probably the dullest shit you can do in an ESF, why not add a slow hard hitting missle that you have to LOS to keep the lock or fast weak missles perfect for tagging other fighters in a dog fight. Hell even a torpedo style weapon for gal busting would be better then hovering and getting a lock over and over again.

Galron · 2013-05-08, 10:55 PM

Id like to see A2A missiles back to their ORIGINAL lock on range, not that halved range bullshit that got slipped in to some patch.

Whiteagle · 2013-05-09, 12:34 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggypop

Hard counters are not fun, having no option for counter play is not fun, not being able to engage in large battles (or rather, not having a large impact on them) is not fun.

Well I don't know about Hard Counters, but being a "Deterrent only" certainly isn't entertaining...

Originally Posted by Ziggypop

Nerf the Burster max (range, velocity or damage), Nerf the rocket pods (capacity, damage, or just allow ESFs to carry only one weapon), Nerf hovering, increase ESF, liberator speed, Buff damage done by small arms fire to Air, add damage degradation at range to Liberator bombs, prevent spawning in a lane you are not closest to (require transport to battles, not "/suicide" to the next battle), reward Gal pilots with xp for dropping players in specific hexes that are selected before takeoff.

I'll agree with nerfing Burster Range and Rocket Pod DIRECT Damage, but I don't think Nerfs to ESF Hovering and Liberator Bomb Damage degradation or buffs to Air Speed and Small Arms Damage are going to help anybody.

I would actually buff Rocket Pod Splash if they're really suppose to be used as an Anti-Infantry weapon, then throw in some Faction flavor for Anti-Vehicle Secondaries.

Requiring Transport between unlinked Bases might be a good change, but we're probably going to want to hash out exactly what the limitations should be before hand, while the Galaxy Experiance Bonus sounds like a job for the Mission System!

Originally Posted by Ziggypop

Adding a shiny new toy for aircraft will not make the lack of an air "meta" any better. Move the role of air away from ground harassment to an enabler of logistics and you will see a larger need for dogfighting and escorting (and thus a need for your new AA specific ESF weapon)

Actually from the sounds of it they want to turn the current AA Missiles into Galaxy and Liberator Torpedoes, so what we really need are Anti-Fighter weapons...

Originally Posted by Ziggypop

That said: The two roles currently filled are a close range, offensive weapon (rotary) and a long range, defensive weapon (A2A missiles). The only other role I can see would be a AOE weapon with an arming time- after which clicking again would detonate the missile/dart/octopus, medium damage (maxdmg:1/6 of an ESF health), low rate of fire(largely influenced by the arming time), will dud if it contacts the ground: useful for engaging large groups of clustered enemy aircraft zerging together before attacking with a rotary.

...Like this for example.
This would basically be dumbfire Rocket C4, correct?
Fire it in a direction and then set it off when it gets close?

Originally Posted by WSNeo

Semi-active Air-to-Air Missile (SAAM):

Hits the air target as long as it remains in the SAAM Reticule

Similar to the weapon used here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...m8XIlJg#t=265s

...Like I've said before this sort of weapon would be pretty useless in Turning fights...

Originally Posted by WSNeo

Ace Combat list of weapons:
http://acecombat.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Weapons

...AND THIS ISN'T ACE COMBAT!!!

Planetside 2 Aircraft engage at RIDICULOUSLY close ranges compared to the Ace Combat Series... I think at least by an Order of Magnitude or two.

Originally Posted by LoliLoveFart

I would love to see more A2A options for ESFs, the current A2A lock missle is probably the dullest shit you can do in an ESF, why not add a slow hard hitting missle that you have to LOS to keep the lock or fast weak missles perfect for tagging other fighters in a dog fight. Hell even a torpedo style weapon for gal busting would be better then hovering and getting a lock over and over again.

Well like I said before, what they want to do with the current AA Missile is turn it into a Gal and Lib Buster...

...But that leaves a SAAM style Missile without a niche, since it will be near impossible to keep the lock in a Dogfight and you'd be better off with the Gal Busting Torpedo anyways.

"Striker-style" AA Missiles would be nice though, even if they seem a bit too TR for the other factions...

Originally Posted by Kail

I was thinking something interesting like "Flak Mines"

Shooting pops them backwards and slightly up
Right-clicking detonates immediately, otherwise they detonate after a couple seconds
Creates a cloud of "Flak" in the air, which damages aircraft passing through & reduces their manuverability while inside and a few seconds after (think a less powerful concussion grenade effect)
Lasts somewhere between 5-15 seconds.. with a volume of somewhere between "single ESF globe" size to "three ESF globe" size
The cloud would affect friendlies, enemies, and yourself equally

If being chased, you can use them to force your attacker to move around them / obscure their sight for a turn; they can ignore it if they want, but will be at a disadvantage if they do. In an actual dogfight, it would help prevent endless tight circling and force fighting to take wider circles / add extra things to watch for.

This might have some potential, considering it can be used in both Counter-offense and Defensive measures...

Originally Posted by Kail

In a skill-based dogfight, I honestly don't think another forward-weapon is really what's needed; learning how to aim with the nosegun and being good with that is already a challenge. The problem from this newbie pilot's perspective is that once another ESF attacks you, the only recourse is tightly circle each other until someone (usually me) crashes into something or just gets tired and bugs out to try a different angle.

True enough, the only other option given so far that I can see myself using in a Dogfight are the "Striker-style" Missiles, and considering how much bad pilots whine about the actual Striker...

I starting thinking that maybe we could have Faction Flavored AA options, but then I realised the most NC appropriate one would be the Remote-detonated C4 Rocket, which certainly wouldn't be as useful as the other two in Turning fights.

Kail · 2013-05-08, 11:19 PM

I was thinking something interesting like "Flak Mines"

Shooting pops them backwards and slightly up
Right-clicking detonates immediately, otherwise they detonate after a couple seconds
Creates a cloud of "Flak" in the air, which damages aircraft passing through & reduces their manuverability while inside and a few seconds after (think a less powerful concussion grenade effect)
Lasts somewhere between 5-15 seconds.. with a volume of somewhere between "single ESF globe" size to "three ESF globe" size
The cloud would affect friendlies, enemies, and yourself equally

If being chased, you can use them to force your attacker to move around them / obscure their sight for a turn; they can ignore it if they want, but will be at a disadvantage if they do. In an actual dogfight, it would help prevent endless tight circling and force fighting to take wider circles / add extra things to watch for.

In a skill-based dogfight, I honestly don't think another forward-weapon is really what's needed; learning how to aim with the nosegun and being good with that is already a challenge. The problem from this newbie pilot's perspective is that once another ESF attacks you, the only recourse is tightly circle each other until someone (usually me) crashes into something or just gets tired and bugs out to try a different angle.

Falcon_br · 2013-05-09, 12:02 AM

First of all, nerf the air hammer, so it become useless to a2a, like the other two faction a2g nose gun.
You will need to change the damage type, it is doing a pure explosive now, what ESF got no resistance to it, while the other two weapons got 88% damage reduction to ESF!
Also, increase the lock on range on a2a missile, like it was before the nerf and became useless.
Increase all nose gun damage to air, so the battle become faster, in a great odd fight, if you hit 10% of your shots, you are luck! Or increase magazine and ammo capacity, already got both on maximum and I run out of ammo lots of time, the max ESF you can kill before returning to reload are 3.
Maybe a smaller, more agile with less range a2a missile? QAAM on ace combat.
The multiple lock on missiles from ace combat really don't have a place on Planetside 2.
Also you can add a FAEB to the game, it would be awesome! Fuel air explosive bomb will be better them an orbital bombardment and everyone will rage quit the game! Too bad it lacks penetration, so enemy tanks just fly for a kilometer killing everyone inside.

Falcon_br · 2013-05-09, 12:11 AM

Did some brainstorming for 10 minutes and got the solution:
New empire specific a2a guns!
The mosquito gets more 2 rotaries on the wings, with great rate of fire but useless accuracy.
The Scythe got lancers on the wings, but with a cone dispersion close range, they can charge it to kill stupids low speed air units.
The reaver... Don't know, they already got the air hammer for that, maybe the old air hammer gets on the wings and the old one got nerfed to air combat, well, it is Nerfside anyway!