3D spotting

[Kilmoran]

Originally Posted by NEWSKIS

I'd rather they keep it the way PS1 is now. Their name/health pops up above them with direct line of sight only. Show people as dots on the minimap only with some sort of base radar or audio amp like implant. I guess that would fall under "other"? It's helpful, but doesnt make spotting people in cover stupidly easy. In BFBC2 it was awful and BF3 had the same with a band-aid on top of it. Also don't have a spot button that you can spam.

This, but making it so that spotting (recon) can be shared with your squad. I don't know if it will be an infiltrator only thing (seems like it) but allow them to mini map only (like PS 1) indicate where enemies are spotted. Gives purpose to the recon role and it wouldn't at all be unbalanced as it is helping the squad/platoon/maybe outfit and not everyone that is in a particular faction all at once.

[JHendy]

Originally Posted by Skitrel

It should be duly noted that this poll will only show the beliefs and opinions of the hardcore of the serious PS players, as that's all there is here on this board. It in no way will reflect the opinions of the majority.

That and people here need to stop talking objectively as if their opinions are fact. It's an annoying trope of gamers.

3D spotting is a console mechanic that somehow made its way onto the PC versions of two Battlefield games, which is the ONLY reason it's being considered for use in Planetside 2. Not because it needs to be in this game, or because it'll be beneficial to gameplay, but simply because it's in Battlefield. As said above, the devs seem to be fanatical about duplicating a lot of Battlefield's features, without first considering whether they actually need to be in Planetside 2.

Not only that, I highly doubt that the vast majority of players who end up populating this game's servers would have an opinion either way. They, wouldn't care. Casuals rarely do.

There is no defending 3D Q spotting. It's a bad feature, and the only reason it's being implemented in Planetside 2 is because it's in Battlefield; not because it's a necessary feature, or a decent one, or one that fits.

Why the hell would you put a console handicap mechanic in a PC exclusive FPS? Why?

Higby?...

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Skitrel

I want Planetside 2 to change that, I want it to see much larger success than Battlefield 3 has shown

It's not going to get there by aping Battlefield 3. And the lack of a feature like 3D spotting won't stop it from reaching blinding heights...

Make the game good enough, and advertise it well, and they will come. They will play, and they will stay.

If the game is good enough, new players will want to put the effort into learning how to play it. Why hold their hands to this extent?

Why are 'new players' these days apparently so incapable of learning how to play without multiple crutches?

As has been said before, an appreciable learning curve will do far more for this game's success and longevity than introducing blanket handicaps like this one.

I can understand 3D spotting as an induction mechanic, being enabled for the first 20 hours of play, or something like that. But having it there all the time seems like bad medicine to me.

A robust 2D spotting mechanic with a very detailed, enlargeable minimap would be a much better idea.

Cheers.

[Vancha]

If 3D spotting is included, my only requests are that it's not too obvious, it doesn't show behind cover and most importantly, the marking graphic is ON the player. I really don't want to be looking for little logos above the heads of players...Make the player shimmer or add some shader effect to them, but make sure it's the player I'm looking for, not a silly little logo.

That said, I have yet to hear a good reason for 3D marking to exist. No one's explained how it improves gameplay. It seems like it'd be equally beneficial and detrimental to newbs and I can imagine it'd kill many attempts to out-maneuver or flank opponents, but otherwise...?

[Kran De Loy]

It's a Sony game, you can't be seriously thinking that it would stay a PC only game forever, right? Sony Execs will eventually force try and force them to use it on either PS3 console or whatever next gen console they try to ship.

But I agree with you (mostly) that it's implementation in the BF series is shit. Just plain shit.

Consider how useful it would be for a truely large scale fights tho, if it was implemented correctly I fully believe it would work.

Again my own views on it are...

Spotting infantry: single target, static position only, last 2 seconds with 4 second cooldown, Squad Leader and Infil Cert only, visibility check for spotter, only effects immediate squadmates or if they put in a system for a single squad leader to be in charge of multiple squads then the guy in charge could spot for the whole contingent.

Spotting vehicles: all of the above except spot marker moves with target and lasts 4 seconds.

[IronMole]

3D spotting isn't needed, it's nothing but an aid and completely ruins the whole "hiding behind cover" immersion. There needs to be a learning curve in PS2 and reading a map should be one of them.

They need to stick to the old 2D map spotting - either by using some sort of radar (Audio Amp etc) or show up when an enemy shoots (COD).

Also, enough of this "minority/majority" crap. You cannot know who is either due to now knowing and actual amount and knowing the facts. For all we know, most may not want 3D spotting but they don't want to voice their opinions. So the argument of 3D spotting will bring more players is stupid and null.

[Kran De Loy]

Originally Posted by Vancha

If 3D spotting is included, my only requests are that it's not too obvious, it doesn't show behind cover and most importantly, the marking graphic is ON the player. I really don't want to be looking for little logos above the heads of players...Make the player shimmer or add some shader effect to them, but make sure it's the player I'm looking for, not a silly little logo.

That said, I have yet to hear a good reason for 3D marking to exist. No one's explained how it improves gameplay. It seems like it'd be equally beneficial and detrimental to newbs and I can imagine it'd kill many attempts to out-maneuver or flank opponents, but otherwise...?

The target calling aspect of it would be super beneficial to everyone. Newbs would get guidance on where to aim and where to look, vets would get a tool for better more solid coordination. The current BF style is just a radar system that entirely takes away any chance of outmaneuver the enemy on a tactical scale (immediate battle range).

Originally Posted by IronMole

3D spotting isn't needed, it's nothing but an aid and completely ruins the whole "hiding behind cover" immersion. There needs to be a learning curve in PS2 and reading a map should be one of them.

They need to stick to the old 2D map spotting - either by using some sort of radar (Audio Amp etc) or show up when an enemy shoots (COD).

Also, enough of this "minority/majority" crap. You cannot know who is either due to now knowing and actual amount and knowing the facts. For all we know, most may not want 3D spotting but they don't want to voice their opinions.

It's not needed, but it would be an excellent tool if limited properly. And by properly I mean heavily. Having a radar for audio pick up is nice, but it should be something that is limited to the 2D spotting like you say. 3D would be for the SL and maybe Infils.

Like a SL command on VOIP says Shoot the MAX in so and so east alley, SW of Gener room. Everyone in the squad looks to the east to see if ti's there or they glance at the radar to see if they can pick it up there.

SL 3D spots the MAX and on VOIP says, SHOOT THAT! MAX's position is lite up for 2 seconds. SL can then call another target or update the location of the MAX 4 seconds later.

[Felkine]

I know we still don't know how will it work out, but imagine this: Lets say a big battle is about to take place, 70 TR infantry are near your position and all you see on your screen is dozens of 3D icons blocking your clear view. If it was implemented in BF it doesn't mean that its the best system. BF isn't the perfect game, its far from that.

[IronMole]

Originally Posted by Kran De Loy

The target calling aspect of it would be super beneficial to everyone. Newbs would get guidance on where to aim and where to look, vets would get a tool for better more solid coordination. The current BF style is just a radar system that entirely takes away any chance of outmaneuver the enemy on a tactical scale (immediate battle range).


It's not needed, but it would be an excellent tool if limited properly. And by properly I mean heavily.

If that's the case, and general icon in a direction saying enemies spotted will suffice. None of this showing enemies positions, etc.

[Kran De Loy]

Originally Posted by IronMole

If that's the case, and general icon in a direction saying enemies spotted will suffice. None of this showing enemies positions, etc.

3D spotting isn't the Devil, I don't know why you insist to much that any version of it at all is so evil. Calling positions over VOIP will do the exact same thing, but having actual target locations for those called shots will be invaluable for all players, most especially for veterans and those people that either do not choose to use VOIP or can not for whatever reason.

2D spotting on a radar map would honestly be almost as broken as 3D spotting if you could do more than 1 target at a time. 2D spotting on a radar if the 2D map is detailed enough, only leaves the y axis questionable. It's just as revealing in the case of there is 3 people around the corner of this wall or building or whatever.

[IronMole]

Originally Posted by Kran De Loy

3D spotting isn't the Devil, I don't know why you insist to much that any version of it at all is so evil. Calling positions over VOIP will do the exact same thing, but having actual target locations for those called shots will be invaluable for all players, most especially for veterans and those people that either do not choose to use VOIP or can not for whatever reason.

2D spotting on a radar map would honestly be almost as broken as 3D spotting if you could do more than 1 target at a time. 2D spotting on a radar if the 2D map is detailed enough is only leaves the y axis questionable. It's just as revealing in the case of there is 3 people around the corner of this wall or building or whatever.

There's a difference in pressing a button and showing an enemies exact position where to aim, to calling it on VOIP. One aids, the other is just a direction which then requires someone to actually scope for them.

3D spotting ruins the whole "cover" immersion. Played BF3? Then you will see what I mean.

2D spotting gives a general sense of position/direction. It doesn't give you an exact location of where to aim unlike 3D spotting.

[Vancha]

Originally Posted by Kran De Loy

The target calling aspect of it would be super beneficial to everyone. Newbs would get guidance on where to aim and where to look, vets would get a tool for better more solid coordination. The current BF style is just a radar system that entirely takes away any chance of outmaneuver the enemy on a tactical scale (immediate battle range).

So yeah, essentially "easier for all". It'd obviously benefit people, my point was how it'd benefit gameplay.

[Kran De Loy]

Originally Posted by IronMole

There's a difference in pressing a button and showing an enemies exact position where to aim, to calling it on VOIP. One aids, the other is just a direction which then requires someone to actually scope for them.

3D spotting ruins the whole "cover" immersion. Played BF3? Then you will see what I mean.

2D spotting gives a general sense of position/direction. It doesn't give you an exact location of where to aim unlike 3D spotting.

Again, not all 3D spotting are a like. Stop thinking of it in strictly only BF's style. 3D spotting in BF series is more like a 3D radar. 3D spotting does not equal 3D radar.

A limited (static, single target, SL/Infil only, etc..) version of 3D spotting would be idle for target calling. Target calling would be a invaluble tool for any leader of any size of force.

Originally Posted by Vancha

So yeah, essentially "easier for all". It'd obviously benefit people, my point was how it'd benefit gameplay.

Single target 3D spotting would give Squad Leaders and possibly recon Infils greater control over their squad making directions and commands quicker and more fluid making the taking or defending of objectives easier and/or quicker. People playing the game being the content this seems like anything that directly effects the player base would effect the gameplay.

[Erendil]

First of all I'd like to say, Stardouser, I LOVE YOU! Pretty much everything you've said in this thread echoes my own thoughts, and you've saved me a lot of typing time in this already-long post since now I can just say, "what Stardouser said." So thank you.

As for my choice in the poll, I voted for 2D spotting only. I feel that 2D spotting is a good compromise between 3D spotting an no spotting at all. It gives you the location of enemies that are in LoS of other players without giving you an actual aiming aid.

Plus, having the red dots on the minimap for me adds a wonderful RTS-feel to the game and I find it quite enjoyable to just watch the ebb and flow of red and green dots during large battles. No other game has given me "Oh SHIT!" moments quite like PS1 from something so simple as a line of red brackets at a tech plant Back Door:

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:[[[[.:[[[[[[[[[[[[



For those who've not played PS1, each one of those brackets is an enemy MAX, and each dot an enemy "softie" infantryman. So the above would be a pretty big push of enemy troops in the long U-shaped hallway inside the BD.

However, in my mind 3D spotting in anything other than a severely limited form, could potentially be as bad for gameplay in my eyes as First Person View was for infantry in PS1, as it kills suspense, gives players way too precise tactical data, becomes too much of a crutch for those who get used to it, and if poorly implemented by the Devs can be tatamount to a Dev-sanctioned wallhack. Plus it teaches players NOTHING about how to start habitually using the minimap.

In addition, from the footage we've seen it's clear that PS2 has nowhere near the amount of concealment that BF/MW has, and enemies already light up when getting hit via the glow from their forcefields, so I don't think that 3D spotting is needed even for new players. Plus there are a lot of different circumstances that can complicate matters, like:

• If the target is a cloaker, do they get spotted? What if they're spotted while uncloaked and then cloak right after?
• How would spotting work for vehicles? Do we want to give them that much power?
• How would spotting work at night?
• If you spot a tank and the crew gets out, does the dorito stay on the tank or follow the crewmembers?
• what happens to 3D spots if you get EMP'd?

The only type of 3D spotting I'd be okay with for the general playerbase in PS2 is if it were manually activated one enemy at a time, limited to only 1-2 placeable markers per person, required a specific skill to use, required some sort of lazing device to use (or maybe an alt-fire mode you could switch to on your weapon), didn't show through cover or concealment, didn't show cloakers, didn't work at night.

TBH though I'd prefer if it just wasn't included and we instead teach people to actually use the 2D spotting on the minimap.

And how do we do that? Well these ideas hopped to mind as I was writing this post:

1. Divide the minimap into a 10x10 grid of invisible squares. If you click a square with your mouse that contains any red dots, those red dots glow much brighter red on the minimap for the next 30 seconds no matter where they go (assuming they stay "spotted"). If you kill one of those brighter red dots in that 30-second window you get a large XP bonus for doing so.
2. Make 3D spotting markers appear on the screen only if you click the red dot on the minimap of the enemy you're trying to spot, only if that enemy is in your direct LoS, and only for the player doing the clicking.
3. Double-clicking a red dot on the minimap that's in LoS will cause a small window to pop up on the HUD that contains a little more info about that enemy, like what class he is and what weapon he's carrying in his hand - but it has to be info that a PS2 vet would know just by looking at their avatar

Each of the above ideas gives players the incentive to use the minimap to track enemy forces, teaches them how to tell if any given red dot is in LoS or not, and gets them used to referring to the minimap more and more to find intel about the enemy's location. And they could be setup so they only work for new players - say BR10 and below, or for the first 20-30 hours of gameplay.

But most of all, NONE of them can be used as an aiming aid for experienced players or for entire groups of players at once.

[laelgon]

i think a decent system of doing it is allowing players to mark the map for their squad and possibly outfit. Have players be able to right click on the map and then place an icon for a tank, infantry, etc. By its nature, it wouldn't be spot on accurate and the enemy can move from wherever you marked, but it provides a better way for indicating threats than saying "ams north of gate." I think this would be a way to have effective, but not overly effective spotting.

[Kran De Loy]

laelgon and Erendil, you're both assuming that the person/people making the markers have time to stop, open their map and fiddle with it.

That overall map I figure will be used for missions and commanders putting up route highlights or other stuff. In the perspective of the infantry squad in the midst of the battle time is life and very few people would be willing to take the time to mouse over a grid map when they're being shot at or in the process of taking a base.