A Wee Balance Scenario: AA vs Aircraft

[Graywolves]

This game is supposed to be competitive.


If you could just hop in a vehicle and dominate all infantry the game would not be very competitive.

[Mechzz]

Originally Posted by Stardouser

Hey, I agree, based on how Higbee tells it there, vehicles should cost something even for a basic one. But some people are saying they think otherwise.

I would still say that anyone who wants to will be flying in a basic aircraft within an hour or two of beta starting. And even if the grunt can pull AA in the first minute that slight "couple of hours" advantage should not give the pilot an "I win" button against said grunt. If it took several weeks to earn enough credits for basic wings then fair enough, the plane should have more armour than an A-10. But if it's a few hours of in-game time that's not enough imo to justify large over-power against hand-held AA.

[Immigrant]

Originally Posted by sylphaen

I try to convey my vision and hope for PS2 but it's hard to share and explain ideas... Anyways, I hope you see what I mean. What I really want is for this game to be fun for everyone and every kind of player. I want it to be AWESOME !

EDIT: and sorry for the long post... I got carried away.

Yup, we all do want that I believe. No need to apologize we're here to do that.

Originally Posted by Stardouser

Hey, I agree, based on how Higbee tells it there, vehicles should cost something even for a basic one. But some people are saying they think otherwise.

What's the embarrassing confession? Being a Vanoob?

Well you herad it fromthe MAN himself. For confession part: yup that's it. Just teasing.

[Stardouser]

Originally Posted by Mechzz

I would still say that anyone who wants to will be flying in a basic aircraft within an hour or two of beta starting. And even if the grunt can pull AA in the first minute that slight "couple of hours" advantage should not give the pilot an "I win" button against said grunt. If it took several weeks to earn enough credits for basic wings then fair enough, the plane should have more armour than an A-10. But if it's a few hours of in-game time that's not enough imo to justify large over-power against hand-held AA.

I think the answer is indeed as you say: I would rather aircraft were expensive enough to justify being that hard to kill - at least you know, if you get 3-4 guys together to kill some aircraft, that you will be hurting them in the resources department. I would rather they be expensive enough to justify this, than they be cheap or free but weaker.

Unfortunately I think we can pretty much be assured they will go for cheap and weaker, because they don't want anyone to be unable to pull a vehicle and be forced to go infantry. I am not saying this because it's complimentary, either, I think you ought to be able to deny vehicles to the enemy.

Powerful but expensive enough to be denied to you, that's the key, but it probably won't be that way.

[Immigrant]

Originally Posted by Mechzz

I would still say that anyone who wants to will be flying in a basic aircraft within an hour or two of beta starting.

Yeah probably, but haven't you been listening - by flying (buying aircrafts) he'll have to sacrifice resource otherwise available to purchase cert/sidegrades for his character. Since his baseline consumption of resources will probably be much higher it's only fair that he has better 1 on 1 chances with anything in the game (except special AA vehicles and emplacements of course where it should be around equal). That's fair tradeoff if you ask me.

[Stardouser]

Originally Posted by Immigrant

Yeah probably, but haven't you been listening - by flying (buying aircrafts) he'll have to sacrifice resource otherwise available to purchase cert/sidegrades for his character. Since his baseline consumption of resources will probably be much higher it's only fair that he has better 1 on 1 chances with anything in the game. That's fair tradeoff if you ask me.

I think it's interesting if certs cost resources, but certs are permanent, so after a while, they won't affect you, as you will have them earned. Certainly the basic ones, I'm sure there will be enough to keep you busy for months.

[Mechzz]

Originally Posted by Stardouser

I think the answer is indeed as you say: I would rather aircraft were expensive enough to justify being that hard to kill - at least you know, if you get 3-4 guys together to kill some aircraft, that you will be hurting them in the resources department. I would rather they be expensive enough to justify this, than they be cheap or free but weaker.

Unfortunately I think we can pretty much be assured they will go for cheap and weaker, because they don't want anyone to be unable to pull a vehicle and be forced to go infantry. I am not saying this because it's complimentary, either, I think you ought to be able to deny vehicles to the enemy.

Powerful but expensive enough to be denied to you, that's the key, but it probably won't be that way.

Yup, agreed. The more expensive a vehicle is in terms of resources and manpower the harder it should be to kill. Ideally the truly hard-hitting vehicles (e.g Galaxy Gunship) will only achieve maximum killing power with a full, large crew, thus encouraging teamwork. And the pilot of a basic mossie/reaver/scythe will have to take his chances against the grunt behind a tree on the nearest hill holding a basic AA weapon.

[Stardouser]

Originally Posted by Mechzz

Yup, agreed. The more expensive a vehicle is in terms of resources and manpower the harder it should be to kill. Ideally the truly hard-hitting vehicles (e.g Galaxy Gunship) will only achieve maximum killing power with a full, large crew, thus encouraging teamwork. And the pilot of a basic mossie/reaver/scythe will have to take his chances against the grunt behind a tree on the nearest hill holding a basic AA weapon.

Well, rumor holds that there will be a certain maximum resources, so that you can't just sit around soaking them up.

So, I would say, that in order to pull a Galaxy Gunship, it should cost so much that if you did, and died quickly say, 3, maybe 4, times in a row, without doing something significant to regain resources, it will drain you. Is that expensive enough?

The question however, is, how long will it take to refill your resources? It's got to take at least 2 hours to be effective, I would say. (Based on my little microscopic example, that would mean 30 minutes of resources-gathering-dedicated gameplay to pull another GG).

[Immigrant]

Originally Posted by Stardouser

I think it's interesting if certs cost resources, but certs are permanent, so after a while, they won't affect you, as you will have them earned. Certainly the basic ones, I'm sure there will be enough to keep you busy for months.

But you could be buying them for years from what they've said. Dedicated infantry will thus definitely unlock important certs for them much faster then dedicated pilots will theirs. After 1-2 years maybe that tradeoff won't affect you as much as you suggested but I'd be surprised if it happened only couple of months into the game.

[Mechzz]

Originally Posted by Stardouser

Well, rumor holds that there will be a certain maximum resources, so that you can't just sit around soaking them up.

So, I would say, that in order to pull a Galaxy Gunship, it should cost so much that if you did, and died quickly say, 3, maybe 4, times in a row, without doing something significant to regain resources, it will drain you. Is that expensive enough?

The question however, is, how long will it take to refill your resources? It's got to take at least 2 hours to be effective, I would say. (Based on my little microscopic example, that would mean 30 minutes of resources-gathering-dedicated gameplay to pull another GG).

Your examples are reasonable, at least in my current mental projection of how the game will work! Of course, a large outfit can rotate the purchaser or otherwise share the cost, so they can keep high value assets active at all times. But the other empires then need to be just as organised or they pay the price.

Back to my OP then - basic aircraft should be counterable by basic hand-held AA. That will maximise my fun as a grunt and encourage the airchavs to upgrade to the more expensive option up the cert tree, by which time the grunt has managed to gather enough resources for an AA-magrider, keeping the battle even. And so on and so on....until we're all flying 6-man GG's against swarms of AA-equipped MBT's in the most amazing mixed-arms combat you've ever seen!

[Stardouser]

Originally Posted by Mechzz

Your examples are reasonable, at least in my current mental projection of how the game will work! Of course, a large outfit can rotate the purchaser or otherwise share the cost, so they can keep high value assets active at all times. But the other empires then need to be just as organised or they pay the price.

Back to my OP then - basic aircraft should be counterable by basic hand-held AA. That will maximise my fun as a grunt and encourage the airchavs to upgrade to the more expensive option up the cert tree, by which time the grunt has managed to gather enough resources for an AA-magrider, keeping the battle even. And so on and so on....until we're all flying 6-man GG's against swarms of AA-equipped MBT's in the most amazing mixed-arms combat you've ever seen!

OOPS...I forgot about that, rotating the purchaser...at that rate they could pull 20 in a row, maybe it should cost between 50 and 75 % of an individual player's resource pool.

Although I would like to see a Squad Shared Purchase thing so that it could be split across squad members.

[Timealude]

Originally Posted by Pyreal

There is no question that a single manned flyer with an AI kit can mop the floor with infantry, regardless of their kit (AA/AI/AV) because its a dmg to health equation.

So why is it a question at to whether a single infantryman with an AA kit can take out a single manned craft or not?

If the pilot's AI kit (assuming the AA kit is stock) costs 3 certs, and the infantryman's AA kit costs 3 points, shouldn't they be equal in damage potential to their specific target?

Head to head: AI flyer vs AA infantry would go to whoever is the better shot and whoever got the drop on the other, since their damage output to their specific target should be equal (assuming identical cert costs).

whose ever the better shot doesnt just come into play, you also have areas they are, take for example:

You have a mossy and you have a NC with a phoenix rocket (for those that havent played planetside, its cam controlled guided rocket. If they both were scaled to the same damage, then all you would have to do as a infantry is hid within the rocks and fire till the mossy either had to retreat or was destroyed. In every shooter I have played, when you are fighting aircraft you want to stay out of wide open areas and shoot from cover as much as possible. That is a strategy which would go right to what T ray said on the FPSguru interview. It all boils down to skill, you dont need to make the damage between AA infantry and aircraft the same, You just need to (and im sorry to say this.) learn how to play better that way you have a better chance against them period. The same can go against the people complaining about the GG. Just because it can hammer a courtyard doesnt mean there isnt a better way to take it down. You have 3 infantry men with strikers and I can tell you that galaxy will run before it completes one pass.

[Mechzz]

Originally Posted by Stardouser

OOPS...I forgot about that, rotating the purchaser...at that rate they could pull 20 in a row, maybe it should cost between 50 and 75 % of an individual player's resource pool.

Although I would like to see a Squad Shared Purchase thing so that it could be split across squad members.

No need for an oops imo! If an outfit is so well organised they can keep fully-manned major assets like GG's in the game at all times then they deserve all the rewards they win from that. It just means the opposition need to be as well organised. And the whole game benefits from that.

If we see good balance at all levels, this game will just rock!

[Immigrant]

Originally Posted by Stardouser

OOPS...I forgot about that, rotating the purchaser...at that rate they could pull 20 in a row, maybe it should cost between 50 and 75 % of an individual player's resource pool.

Although I would like to see a Squad Shared Purchase thing so that it could be split across squad members.

So others can use vehicle you purchased straight away? I thought they said you could leave your vehicle outside of a base for a reasonable period of time without fearing someone will jack it. After certain period you're away others could take it not before so that wouldn't be effective method if what I said was true. People within an outfit will have to diversify enough to achieve overall maximum efficiency, or at least that how I believe would be the best.

[Stardouser]

Originally Posted by Mechzz

No need for an oops imo! If an outfit is so well organised they can keep fully-manned major assets like GG's in the game at all times then they deserve all the rewards they win from that. It just means the opposition need to be as well organised. And the whole game benefits from that.

If we see good balance at all levels, this game will just rock!

Yes, but if they are so cheap that a 5 man squad(or 6, however many people are in one) can pull 20 in a row, they might not necessarily have to be that skilled or organized in order to do it. If a squad is drained after pulling say, 8, and they have to spend 30 minutes recovering enough to pull another one, that means that they also need to stay alive a certain length of time getting kills or whatever.

TL;DR: If they are too cheap compared to the overall squad(since as you say they can rotate purchaser), even a lesser skilled squad will be able to buy one too often relative to their skill.

Originally Posted by Immigrant

So others can use vehicle you purchased straight away? I thought they said you could leave your vehicle outside of a base for a reasonable period of time without fearing someone will jack it. After certain period you're away others could take it not before so that wouldn't be effective method if what I said was true. People within an outfit will have to diversify enough to achieve overall maximum efficiency, or at least that how I believe would be the best.

That I have no idea but even if you can't assign your purchase to someone else, people will just have to learn to be pilots in order to operate at maximum squad resource-use efficiency. Surely they will either allow people to assign the vehicle to another pilot, or have a squad resource sharing function, or something.