Vehicles will/should be rare. - Page 4

Figment · 2012-07-16, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by Klockan

This doesn't have to do with the driver + gunner debate, this has to do with how much infantry we will have on the field. Driver + gunner tanks will reduce the amount of infantry since it becomes cheaper per person in the tank, but other than that this is a separate topic.

It's a related topic. You talk about numbers of vehicles in the field, correct?

If you want to tone those numbers down, you can do this by setting up various requirements for them that prevent spam.

For toning down the numbers in a sandbox game where you can pull whatever you want, here is what you can do

The most straight forward is reducing availability by upping relative cost by either upping the cost of a unit, or lowering the resource pool available to you: meaning you simply can't afford it.
Reducing availability can also be done by setting up technology requirements (think C&C where you need specific buildings and techs in order to even construct units - very much related to the cert debate, but also continental map/level design)
Reducing availability by creating logistical advantages to infantry: being able to spawn closer to the combat and therefore keep up a consistent frontline can be made a definite advantage and incentive to pick infantry over vehicles. (Very much related to the AMS vs Galaxy debate and continental map/level design.)
Reducing applicability of vehicles by creating infantry only or infantry advantage zones. (Very much related to level design)
Next is manpower requirements. More manpower per unit required (not optional) limits the total potential number, which makes it easier for other units to deal with them (related to driver/gunner debate) and also makes it slightly more interesting for solo players to perform other roles.
Another thing is reducing survivability of the individual units (related to unit balance by firepower and endurance (hitpoints/damage mitigation))
The survivability of one unit can also be reduced by upping the survivability of another unit. For instance if you want infantry to be more popular, you have to provide them with the option of winning an engagement. (This is related to weapon availability and niche vs generalist combat)
Another things is limiting the amount of unit types a player can pull (related to class/cert specialization debate)

There are a few more tricks and tweaks you can do as a dev, but these are the most important ones. They are all very much related to the big debates on PS2.

fod · 2012-07-16, 08:36 AM

if you limit MBT's then people will just use other vehicles as tank replacements instead of using them for their intended use (like when a tech plant goes down and people grab thunderers)

Hmr85 · 2012-07-16, 08:39 AM

Go play PS1 then report back to us how having a ton of vehicles is a problem. Your lack of ever playing a MMOFPS is showing. This is me putting it the nice way.

Azren · 2012-07-16, 08:40 AM

Originally Posted by Klockan

If there are few tanks there will also be comparably fewer AV infantry since there are fewer targets to shoot. Also it doesn't make sense to convert resources, now you are assuming things. Most likely you can't convert resources since that would make them less meaningful.

Wrong. AV will also be used to take out base defenses and MAX units.

Anything concerning resources is an assumption. If a resource will only be used for one thing, like spawning tanks, I am guessing you will be able to convert them, otherwise you would end up with loads of resources you never use.
Well, maybe you can trade them with players too.

Originally Posted by Hmr85

Go play PS1 then report back to us how having a ton of vehicles is a problem. Your lack of ever playing a MMOFPS is showing. This is me putting it the nice way.

QFT
There they are free, and yet the foot zergs are in greater number than vehicles.

RodenyC · 2012-07-16, 08:43 AM

Klockan,have you ever played PS1?

Accuser · 2012-07-16, 08:43 AM

I think we can pretty much close this thread now. The OP obviously just wishes there would be less vehicles, when the Devs explicitly talk up the "HUGE ASS VEHICLE COMBAT" at every opportunity.

There are quite a few FPS games with limited vehicles you can play if you don't like it. Hell, there will probably be bases with limited vehicle access for you to enjoy in PS2 even (assuming we can fend off the "put artillery in" crowd)

Odomas · 2012-07-16, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by ruskyandrei

No thanks, I want to see large tank battles, while dozens of aircraft are dogfighting in the air above and infantry is moving around in cover.

I don't want to see 1-2 tanks that some random dude is picking off by divebombing his jet into while the rest of the people are quickscoping eachother off the map.

Planetside is a game where vehicles are not, and should not, be rare. (Unless them being rare is a result of a bad use of resources or terrain limitations)

^^^ This ^^^

Planetside is NOT Battlefield.

Originally Posted by Klockan

You are thinking too much in PS1 terms here.

And you're clearly thinking too much in terms of Battlefield...
Did you even play PS1?

The rest of us WANT to see and be involved in huge air and tank battles and we WANT to see shit like this:
If you don't like it, go take your Battlefield mentality elsewhere.

ArmedZealot · 2012-07-16, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by Klockan

No, this isn't a problem. The battlefield series thrived on having a low vehicle count. There are tanks and planes, but ~80-90% of the manpower is on foot. The only ones who will whine about that are stuck up PS1 vets who wants to drive around in a tank or a plane 24/7.

I'm usually one of the first to bash vets for being bitter about change, but on this issue I think they would be justified in feeling that way.

PS1 was at it's best in vehicle combat or bridge battles. Infantry combat was second in terms of coolness. Hopefully with PS2's improved gunplay and base designs they will both be on par with each other.

If you are going to take elements from BF3, take the gunplay, not the vehicle gameplay elements. They don't scale to PS2's size.

Klockan · 2012-07-16, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by Hmr85

Go play PS1 then report back to us how having a ton of vehicles is a problem. Your lack of ever playing a MMOFPS is showing. This is me putting it the nice way.

PS1 is a very different game with very different mechanics. I have already explained this. In PS1 you were a driver class that were lackluster outside of vehicle while the infantry class couldn't drive. Thus to assault the base you needed to get the foot soldiers to the door, to get them there you need vehicles but after that the foot soldiers are all that matters and your driver is suddenly less important. However in PS2 anyone can drive and then jump out to assault the corridors so vehicles don't have the trade offs they had in PS1 which is why we need to limit them in another way.

DukeTerror · 2012-07-16, 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by morf

Last but not least, anyone who played PS1 knows that while an initial push has a lot of vehicles, as those get blowed up, the vehicle crush turns into a footzerg because it's more effective to respawn at the AMS/Galaxy in 20 seconds than to take 5-10 mins to reorganize back at a friendly base, pull another vehicle, fill it, and drive back to the battle. And on defense, the first thing to drop is generally your vehicle term, so it's all foot action from there.

Vehicles will be limited by the battlefield situation. Making them artificially rare would dilute the liberty to play any role you want - one of the hallmarks of PS.

Probably the most truth spoken here.

I was just showing a friend who was a BF3 player the E3 stream, and was like "Look, no fighting over the tanks and jets, just spawn what you want". That's a game positive that players are going to love. Good skilled drivers and pilots will likely be able to keep their resources in positive balance just like good players keep their K/D ratio positive or how good careful players could stay alive longer than vehicle spawn timers. It would only be to limit spawn/crash/spawn/crash tactics and slow new players down a bit until they get the hang of things (which is good, makes them experience the game more all-around).

The only thing I could think of that'd be different from this gameplay is that maybe they make the vehicle terminals at the towers or at other hex locations cost more resources that the ones at the main bases. Would make you start to think about the cost/benefit of that tank being spawned nearby or not.

Klockan · 2012-07-16, 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by Odomas

^^^ This ^^^

Planetside is NOT Battlefield.

And you're clearly thinking too much in terms of Battlefield...
Did you even play PS1?

The rest of us WANT to see and be involved in huge air and tank battles and we WANT to see shit like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qjzG...layer_embedded

If you don't like it, go take your Battlefield mentality elsewhere.

You will still see exactly that, it is just that to get that the players would have to save resources for 15-20 minutes or so. Is that too much organization for you?

Azren · 2012-07-16, 08:48 AM

Originally Posted by Klockan

PS1 is a very different game with very different mechanics. I have already explained this. In PS1 you were a driver class that were lackluster outside of vehicle while the infantry class couldn't drive. Thus to assault the base you needed to get the foot soldiers to the door, to get them there you need vehicles but after that the foot soldiers are all that matters and your driver is suddenly less important. However in PS2 anyone can drive and then jump out to assault the corridors so vehicles don't have the trade offs they had in PS1 which is why we need to limit them in another way.

Now I know you never played PS1.

In PS1 there were no classes

ArmedZealot · 2012-07-16, 08:48 AM

Originally Posted by Klockan

You will still see exactly that, it is just that to get that the players would have to save resources for 15-20 minutes or so. Is that too much organization for you?

Yes actually. Timers were 5 minutes for the common vehicles in PS1. 15-20 minutes would mean you get 1 vehicle per base capture, and that would be way too long.

Klockan · 2012-07-16, 08:49 AM

Originally Posted by Azren

Now I know you never played PS1.

In PS1 there were no classes

There were indirectly classes with the suits. People who didn't drove almost all went with the heavy suit.

Goku · 2012-07-16, 08:49 AM

Quite simply no. Combined arms between air and ground units plus infantry is what makes PlanetSide a great game. I do not want to see tanks limited to the point this is mostly a infantry game. The developers already said that there will be areas favoring air, ground, and infantry anyway I don't see this being an issue. Infantry also have way more cover in PS2 vs PS1, so they won't be picked off as easily. This isn't infantryside 2.