Nerf the NC MAX. - Page 13

Sledgecrushr · 2013-02-11, 07:54 AM

Ive watched lots of video of tr maxes going on epic killing sprees. Good players do that sort of thing. Im not a great player and I had a thirty kill streek the other night on matthison attacking a bio lab with an uncerted vs max. The ai/av combo is bad ass, I was cutting nc down in waves.

Sledgecrushr · 2013-02-11, 07:57 AM

Originally Posted by Dkamanus

Give TR and VS a 20% damage boost and add 1/3 RoF in every weapon. I think it'll probably be too much, but that should fix em compared to the NC MAX.

Ok, and give us range out to 50 meters like the other factions. Better yet just give all the maxes the same weapons so buthurt players wont cry so much. This thread sucks.

Varsam · 2013-02-11, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by Baneblade

Maybe in a preset testing environment, but in the real situation things aren't quite as predictable. He was running away from me, and I had to keep slowing down to shoot at him. Which means he was getting further and further away. Not to mention the obstacle course he was ducking around to make it that much harder.

So if my not being able to keep the myth surrounding the NC MAX and it's ability to kill from across the map alive means I'm bad, I'd hate to think what that means for mere mortals.

No one thinks the nc max is effective
across the map. Your hyperbole is ridiculous and unwarranted.

Originally Posted by Sledgecrushr

Ok, and give us range out to 50 meters like the other factions. Better yet just give all the maxes the same weapons so buthurt players wont cry so much. This thread sucks.

Calling even mercy maxes effective at 50 meters would be a stretch.

SDLshannon · 2013-02-11, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by Chewy

@0:37- It took 10 shells at under a meter to kill a full HP MAX. Those 3 @1:10 where HEAVILY damaged without any form of support or repairs. The first of those 3 started getting hit by the VP (video poster) @1:07 by getting a FULL dual scat into him (14 shells) then it took another 4 to kill. I don't know what HP the other 2 where at thanks to the video quality but it took 4 shells to finish it off the 2nd MAX and it took 8 shells for the 3rd.

If it takes 10 shells to kill a MAX at 1 meter then by math the other 2 VS MAXes where at around 40% and 80% HP before the VP even got eyes in them from taking fire from an enemy flooded outpost. Those explosions @1:25 and the fire hitting the VP from his back might have also done even more damage on top of the VPs 8 shells.

The guy @2:50 was not only alone but RELOADING, the VP seen that and went for an easy kill. And as for the shielded HA @3:20 you pointed out, look @3:11. That spawn was CAMPED and people where being killed before they got to the door where the VP was at. Id put cash money that very HA had maybe 10% of his shield left before taking those 2-4 shells in his face.

There's also the fact that the only time the VP has any sort of a fight was @1:25, he took what looks like 20% damage, but had an engie repairing him (hard to see, you can just make out the sound and the green pop up under VPs health that only shows when getting healed/repaired). As well as @3:43 where EVERY time got shot it took at least 15% of health and more. If backup didn't come @4:00 his death was a 100% chance against 2+ troops.

I will say that you did a good job hand picking a decent video showing what might happen in a heated fight. Yet the VP got LUCKY AS FUCK that entire time with him having backup and his enemy with none until @3:43 where he lucked out with the base cap and a pack of NC came in to clear the room for him. You can also see how much reloading is FORCED on NC MAXes. We spend more time reloading than shooting! In that video (before the first cut @2:38) the VP reloaded 10 times and ran out of ammo. In the 2nd cut (@2:38-@4:07) he reloaded 7 times. 17 reloads and running out of ammo in 4 minutes of gameplay (without knowing how much was cut out @2:38). That's 59.5 seconds of down time in just reloading. 1 out of the 4 minutes being usless and forced to run or die. Need I say more?

-Edit addition-
klossboss-

Im sorry for not getting the test done yet. My net has been shit for about a week now. Although I love to watch all things spaz into oblivion when lagging but it makes getting real data and video quality impossible. For anyone that knows what SuddenLink is I beg of you to curse their name.

Hi- My name is Shannon and I am with Suddenlink. I am sorry to hear you are having trouble with your internet service and would be happy to help resolve. You can email me directly at shannon-AT-suddenlink-DOT-com. Thank you!

SGOniell · 2013-02-11, 04:31 PM

Alright, after reading this entire thread, which was very tiring mind you. I see a few things. I see an OP who isn't open to discussion, saying he "doesn't want arguments." I also see him want to nerf things just because he says so, without justification, which he seems to have pointed out as his point somewhere along the way.

I also see MAX vs MAX comparisons, which I think are partially helpful. The discussion is MAX vs infantry, yet the comparisons given do offer a view on their firepower. I think testing on Infantry at different ranges would be better suited.

I also see lots of whining, and I grow tired of it. It seems to come down to the fact that people just hate the NC MAX because of its short effective range and the fact that it kills incredibly quickly there.

Well, let's look at this in terms of a self defense scenario in your home for comparison. You have a choice between a shotgun, and an assault rifle. Which would you pick? Some would say the assault rifle, for sheer rof to keep someone down. I, and most others who've picked a gun for defense, will choose a shotgun. Shotguns will put a target down. An assault rifle can over penetrate the target, and the damage delivered by each round sucks for dropping people (look at the 6.8spc, designed to outperform the 5.56 because it couldn't drop people in 1 shot.).

The Shotgun is a weapon made for CQB, these other weapons are not. You're all complaining about a SHOTGUN, being too powerful at the very ranges its supposed to be most lethal. Seriously?

Furthermore, I believe sufficient evidence has been given to how frail NC MAX units can be. Learn to DEAL WITH IT. They all have their strengths, they all have their weaknesses. Each Empire's MAX units can be used to great effect, or if used poorly, can be brought down by a single soldier.

One last thing. I see people complaining about the range at which most battles are fought. While it is true that everything revolves around short ranges, have you all forgotten laying siege to the Crown? Or the foot battle to get to other outposts? There are certainly enough alternative venues for combat. I typically find myself as heavy assault engaging at ranges around 20m-50m. Even entering biolabs results in a fight at the entrances, where you aren't close enough for the NC Max to be effective.

But, if you guys insist on running into one head on then be my guest, you just haven't learned to leverage its weaknesses, and your strengths. THAT is what makes a good player. One who can adapt, can outsmart their enemy. So try harder, use that flash bang suggestion I found earlier in the thread.

The tools are their, as with anything, people simply refuse to use them.

Assist · 2013-02-11, 04:48 PM

Originally Posted by SGOniell

Alright, after reading this entire thread, which was very tiring mind you. I see a few things. I see an OP who isn't open to discussion, saying he "doesn't want arguments." I also see him want to nerf things just because he says so, without justification, which he seems to have pointed out as his point somewhere along the way.

You read the entire thread and came to these conclusions?

SGOniell · 2013-02-11, 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by Assist

You read the entire thread and came to these conclusions?

Would you like me to pull up your quotes on "not wanting an argument" and on "nerfing because people say it should be"?

SGOniell · 2013-02-11, 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by Assist

T I don't want to hear arguments

Originally Posted by Dragonskin

This thread actually isn't about the NC MAX needing a justification for a nerf. It's about people calling for nerfs just because they can.

Apologies assist, I misread the author of the one regarding justification. But, nevertheless, you did say you don't want to hear arguments.

Assist · 2013-02-11, 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by SGOniell

Apologies assist, I misread the author of the one regarding justification. But, nevertheless, you did say you don't want to hear arguments.

I stated that to make a point. You can use nearly the same exact argument over the NC MAX that was used to nerf the Magrider. You can quite literally replace Magrider with NC MAX and come to the same conclusions, except that Higby has not posted the 'effective' stats of the NC MAX. Hearing arguments that are irrelevant because they can be misguided by statistics isn't what I wanted this thread to become. Unfortunately it has, because people don't read threads. I used the thread title 'Nerf the XXXXXXX' because I knew it would get views since this community(ps2) is more concerned with nerfing things into the ground rather than countering them with their play style.

Originally Posted by maradine

Keep scissors sharp, rocks hard, and paper thin. Homogenization is for milk.

Originally Posted by Dragonskin

This thread actually isn't about the NC MAX needing a justification for a nerf. It's about people calling for nerfs just because they can.

Maybe Maradine's thread was needed.

Originally Posted by Assist

Some of you missed the point of the post. I don't want a game with three factions that all play the same, but that's what they've been balancing the game to and quite frankly it's boring that the game has been reduced to only infantry fights for the game to be 'fun'. This game should be about strategic military style warfare.

Originally Posted by Assist

You can read above, or perhaps my other post in here which I linked to as well. I guess you don't want to read it, which is fine, but stop responding if you're not going to read it. I bring the facts that I know from the game because it's all I have. Like I said, I can make a video of the VS MAX against an NC MAX and show it to you destroying the VS MAX, what does it prove? It proves I set a situation that favored my point of view to get the results I wanted. If you don't believe the NC MAX is too strong I suggest you spend a little more time in the game, but that WASN'T THE POINT OF THIS ENTIRE THREAD. Please read what I wrote rather than going on and on about stupid shit like nerfs that I explained I DON'T WANT THEM TO HAPPEN.

Once again, hopefully you'll read this rather than just ignoring it, I've stated that I do NOT want the NC MAX to be nerfed. However, I also feel the TRAC-5, CARV, Magrider, etc also did not need to be nerfed. 'Dumbing' the game down so everyone has the same effective k/d is not balance, it's mediocrity and I am trying to get the point across to you guys about that. Someone screams NERF, posts some random stat that supports it, and the community jumps on it. This is how the balance has gone so far, even in beta, and it's not how it should be done IMO as it only makes the game boring.

You should really read the thread before stating you read the thread. You'd understand a bit more about the thread.

AuntLou · 2013-02-11, 04:59 PM

If I see a NC max I might as well just accept the death and stop trying to run. I'm dead in a second or less every time I see one. I have both the nebula and the quasar for the VS max and experience nothing like this. It's more of a 4-5 second battle like a normal gun, maybe even worse.

NotTheMomma · 2013-02-11, 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by Lord Mondando

....
Where as the Nc Max avec shotguns, is hugely situational. Outside of enclosed space (were a robot man with shot gun arms, should presumably excel) it is utterly useless.

And why should it being unfair in these instances argue for a nerf. The fundamental premise here is NC has a niche fraction edge, it should not have this.

Why shouldn't it?

I think my biggest problem with it, the tepidness of the VS MAX notwithstanding, is how that niche edge fits into the key mechanics of the game. Almost everything important in the game is in close quarters, near obstructions or approached by choke points of some kind. Control points, generators, SCU's, etc. This "hugely situational" benefit translates into a strategic superiority, now that they've been transferred from the "Combat Outpost Keating" warpgate, lol.

The guy who posted "just throw grenades" just made me laugh. You obviously don't have maxed out flak armor on your MAX. An NC scat MAX, an engineer and a medic keeping to cover -- all with flak armor -- can defend a generator practically indefinitely unless you have an entire squad blanket them with grenades all at once (and half of them are still going to die) ... which sounds just a bit unbalanced, wouldn't you say?

And, yes, you can get range in a Biolab fight. I do on occasion and have a nice, shiny K/D to show for it. But, that's not what takes or holds a Biolab. And that is proven day after day now that NC's population has jumped back up after a tank buff and great new warpgate on Indar, where I have seen them hold ALL THREE BIOLABS on THREE DIFFERENT SERVERS time and time and time again, until they get bored of it.

Sifer2 · 2013-02-11, 05:10 PM

I have not been keeping up on this topic. Just wanted to add that I was playing yesterday, and am now convinced Hacksaw MAX has FAR more range than NC give them credit for. Got gibbed from nearly 40m. Maybe it's the slugs. Whatever it is all I know is the NC defense force claiming they are only deadly in 10m range are full of it. I'm now certain this thing is on par with TR Mercy MAX in terms of effective range having felt it reach out an touch me first hand. And yes I was at full health.

SGOniell · 2013-02-11, 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by Assist

I stated that to make a point. You can use nearly the same exact argument over the NC MAX that was used to nerf the Magrider. You can quite literally replace Magrider with NC MAX and come to the same conclusions, except that Higby has not posted the 'effective' stats of the NC MAX. Hearing arguments that are irrelevant because they can be misguided by statistics isn't what I wanted this thread to become. Unfortunately it has, because people don't read threads. I used the thread title 'Nerf the XXXXXXX' because I knew it would get views since this community(ps2) is more concerned with nerfing things into the ground rather than countering them with their play style.

You should really read the thread before stating you read the thread. You'd understand a bit more about the thread.

As stated, I read the entire thread, just because I misquoted one instance is no reason to assume I did not.

Also of note, I find it amusing you ignored everything I said other than my original conclusions. The quotes you linked to definitely seem to disagree with the way you've spoken on the nerfing. Or I may have misread entries again by the other Vanu poster. My screen is split between Strength of Materials and this forum at the moment, so I have to scroll to the right to read everything.

But, next time, you need not be misguiding with your original posts, it does not help, and even now I question whether you are being completely truthful. No offense, but you've misguided us once, why would you not do it again?

If your later post does indeed hold the truth, then I agree with you wholeheartedly, it does not need to be nerfed. Of course, I didn't think the Magrider or anything else needed it either. The one thing I ever thought caused problems, was air power.

Bring your point to the forefront with your original posts next time, and choose suitable titles. Otherwise you poison a good thread open to decent discussion with those who simply can't manage discussion without horrid bickering.

BIGGByran · 2013-02-11, 06:20 PM

Originally Posted by Assist

I stated that to make a point. You can use nearly the same exact argument over the NC MAX that was used to nerf the Magrider. You can quite literally replace Magrider with NC MAX and come to the same conclusions

Hhmmmmm, so the VS Max has more maneuverability over other maxs, can climb wall that other maxs can't, and has weapon stabilization that the NC and TR maxs don't, which help hittings targets A LOT!

The only difference between the maxs are the weapons and thats pretty much it. You can't say the only difference between the Tank are the weapons.

Please Assist get Higby to release the data on Max Vs Max K/D and Max Vs Inf K/D. Or get a Dev to read this post and see what their thoughts are. I wish they would have a site where you can look this stuff up. Would be interesting to know the statistic of nearly everything.

xCeoNx · 2013-02-11, 11:49 PM

OK... I've read this whole thread and it was funny...

In summarision it was like:

"NC max has shortest ttk "- "but they suck at long range"
"but they are op in cqc" - "but they suck at long range"
"but most critical battle is in cqc" - "but they suck at long range"
"nc max has mathmatically the highsest burstdmg and highest dps over time" "but they suck at long range"

but back to topic

"The Shotgun is a weapon made for CQB, these other weapons are not. You're all complaining about a SHOTGUN, being too powerful at the very ranges its supposed to be most lethal. Seriously?"

At first, what is the morality of TR "numbers over power, Many bullets, high RoF, low dmg per shot"
and what is the one of NC "few bullets, small Rof, but brute force"

Now think about, what a shotgun like hacksaw is... MANY SMALL GODDAMNIT BULLETS WITH F**KING HIGH ROF" (sorry)

I think Shotguns are a bad choice of weapons for NC MAX in the first place. Something like a very slow firing Gauss Rifle with high dmg per shot, small mag, and properly reload time, would suit the mentality much more than the weapons they have now.
And I think the weapons of NC MAXes could be easily scripted into such weapons, each with its own pros and cons, but would rather like to see a max with 2 weak Sniper rifles on his arms, that destroy my shield + 50%of my health with the first two shots, even at longer range, than 5-10m, but give me time to react and take cover, or leave the room i entered overhasty, before he is ready to make his other 2 devestating shots"
This could be balanced more easily for all three maxes and wouldnt be: "all fractions are the same"