Sniping Mechanics and Headshots - Page 2

Vancha · 2012-01-07, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by SKYeXile

explain the super long barrel then

Beat you to it.

Atuday · 2012-01-07, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by DviddLeff

Remember that

Bullets are going to be affected by gravity.
There appears to be a lot more cover for infantry to use.

I think that these two things will make sniping more difficult, even if its one hit kill with a head shot.

I do think that snipers should be able to one hit kill if they are lucky/skilled enough; snipers should be able to make it dangerous to cross open ground and act as a force multiplier if they are used well.

And after all if you are having trouble with a particularly good sniper just call in the air cav, or artillery, or a tank, or grab a MAX suit, or a stealth suit, etc.

I second this comment as being the best way forward for planetside2.

Shogun · 2012-01-07, 03:27 PM

Originally Posted by Vancha

That doesn't look like a sniper rifle he's holding.

Thanks for the pic though.

it was already dev confirmed that this picture shows a cloaking sniper, but we don´t have any details yet, how the mechanics will work and what penaltys a sniker (sniping cloaker) has compared to a cloaker without big weapons.

SKYeXile · 2012-01-07, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by Shogun

it was already dev confirmed that this picture shows a cloaking sniper, but we don´t have any details yet, how the mechanics will work and what penaltys a sniker (sniping cloaker) has compared to a cloaker without big weapons.

i see what you did thar.

Vancha · 2012-01-07, 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by Shogun

it was already dev confirmed that this picture shows a cloaking sniper

It was already me-confirmed too.

ArmaGetItOn · 2012-01-07, 03:37 PM

I see snipers with cloaking as a huge problem, because it was a problem in battlefield heroes. In that game, you could cloak, hide out in the open and wait for the perfect shot with no fear of anyone spotting you (except cheaters, especially because it's FTP)

You should not be able to sit there and wait for a perfect shot with no fear of anyone being able to shoot at you while you wait. Cloaking in Planetside 1 was great: you could only kill from close to melee range as a cloaker, and you could spot cloakers at short range with darklight. Darklight didn't work any farther than close range, so you could only be spotted if you were moving in for a kill.

I love sniping in battlefield 3 because of the easy ability to spot snipers. You can see the glint of their scope a mile away, letting you know a sniper could be aiming at you. Even then, you only score a one hit kill on someone if it's a headshot, or if your target is already wounded.

Players do not like dying to things they feel they could not have avoided. They like to think that if they had done something differently, they would have survived. Cloaked snipers are one of those unavoidable deaths. You will have no indication of where it's coming from.

There is no way to balance this. Give snipers cloaking, and everyone will be constantly complaining about cheap kills that they could not shoot back at. Give darklight the ability to see cloaked snipers, and you ruin cloaking for everyone except snipers.

texico · 2012-01-07, 03:48 PM

The danger here is infantryside being nigh impossible in outdoor combat if snipers are both able to kill instantly and cloak. I suppose the effect of gravity might help. But I can imagine bands of hidden snipers KO'ing anything that moves in the open. I don't think "rarity" of the skilled is going to balance the fact that players can kill in one shot. People are very good at perfecting skills in games to exploit advantages.

Obviously it's not easy to say for sure until Beta comes around. But it doesn't seem fair that if one player happens to be skilled enough, the other will die instantly and with no ability to react. He should be given a chance, which is what the 70% damage did. Instant-killing is probably just going to diminish outdoor infantryside (which in a game of PlanetSide's scale is already difficult) and frustrate players, especially new players. And if it's possible I'd expect plenty of people to pick up that skill quickly - they always do.

ArmaGetItOn · 2012-01-07, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by texico

The danger here is infantryside being nigh impossible in outdoor combat if snipers are both able to kill instantly and cloak. I suppose the effect of gravity might help. I don't think "rarity" of the skilled is going to balance the fact that players can kill in one shot. .

I mentioned battlefield 3 in my last post, snipers get along just fine in that game being able to be spotted miles away with their scope glint shining like the sun, and also with silly amounts of bullet drop, and bullet travel time.

All it takes to overcome bullet drop and travel time is practice. After a hundred kills, that bullet drop might as well not exist. Any skill-less idiot can figure it out.

texico · 2012-01-07, 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by ArmaGetItOn

Players do not like dying to things they feel they could not have avoided. They like to think that if they had done something differently, they would have survived.

Yeah, this is one of the things I'm getting at too. I don't have as much of a problem with cloaking though, but I do have a problem with one-shot kills, and definitely one-shot kills together with cloaking.

Vancha · 2012-01-07, 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by ArmaGetItOn

I see snipers with cloaking as a huge problem, because it was a problem in battlefield heroes.

Your problem has already become invalid.

Originally Posted by ArmaGetItOn

In that game, you could cloak, hide out in the open and wait for the perfect shot with no fear of anyone spotting you (except cheaters, especially because it's FTP)

How do you know you'll be able to do this in Planetside 2?

Originally Posted by ArmaGetItOn

You should not be able to sit there and wait for a perfect shot with no fear of anyone being able to shoot at you while you wait.

Same question.

Originally Posted by ArmaGetItOn

I love sniping in battlefield 3 because of the easy ability to spot snipers. You can see the glint of their scope a mile away, letting you know a sniper could be aiming at you.

How do you know this won't be in Planetside 2? Does their cloaking device prevent their sniper scopes reflecting sunlight?

Originally Posted by ArmaGetItOn

Cloaked snipers are one of those unavoidable deaths. You will have no indication of where it's coming from.

Won't you?

Originally Posted by ArmaGetItOn

There is no way to balance this. Give snipers cloaking, and everyone will be constantly complaining about cheap kills that they could not shoot back at. Give darklight the ability to see cloaked snipers, and you ruin cloaking for everyone except snipers.

There is, not necessarily and no you don't.

SKYeXile · 2012-01-07, 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by ArmaGetItOn

I see snipers with cloaking as a huge problem, because it was a problem in battlefield heroes. In that game, you could cloak, hide out in the open and wait for the perfect shot with no fear of anyone spotting you (except cheaters, especially because it's FTP)

You should not be able to sit there and wait for a perfect shot with no fear of anyone being able to shoot at you while you wait. Cloaking in Planetside 1 was great: you could only kill from close to melee range as a cloaker, and you could spot cloakers at short range with darklight. Darklight didn't work any farther than close range, so you could only be spotted if you were moving in for a kill.

I love sniping in battlefield 3 because of the easy ability to spot snipers. You can see the glint of their scope a mile away, letting you know a sniper could be aiming at you. Even then, you only score a one hit kill on someone if it's a headshot, or if your target is already wounded.

Players do not like dying to things they feel they could not have avoided. They like to think that if they had done something differently, they would have survived. Cloaked snipers are one of those unavoidable deaths. You will have no indication of where it's coming from.

There is no way to balance this. Give snipers cloaking, and everyone will be constantly complaining about cheap kills that they could not shoot back at. Give darklight the ability to see cloaked snipers, and you ruin cloaking for everyone except snipers.

same sort of problem with problem with global agenda. I really think stealth snipers are gonna be heaps op.

ArmaGetItOn · 2012-01-07, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by ArmaGetItOn

Players do not like dying to things they feel they could not have avoided. They like to think that if they had done something differently, they would have survived.

Originally Posted by texico

Yeah, this is one of the things I'm getting at too. I don't have as much of a problem with cloaking though, but I do have a problem with one-shot kills, and definitely one-shot kills together with cloaking.

Robin Walker made a great blog post on this issue several years ago talking about how they designed the sniper in TF2.

http://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=2477

On things that cause an aggravating game experience:

The second was whether you felt you were actually engaged with the person who killed you. Dying to someone you weren't engaged with, especially when you were already engaged with someone else, was aggravating. Even worse was dying to someone who you couldn't have engaged with, even if you chose to. In that case, you're very unlikely to believe you could have done anything differently to survive.

The bolded sentence is cloaked snipers in a nutshell.

LongBow · 2012-01-07, 05:15 PM

Unfortunately, there is a mantra in games design, that says games are better if they are a bit frustrating (so you feel better when you do finally accomplish your goal).

However this is for single player games, and quite blindly some devs take what they know and copy paste this into multiplayer games, and sure in best case scenarios (like when the testers know each other or are being watched) it works (and that's how it gets through testing).

but in multi player nothing should frustrate about the game mechanics ... people being people will solve that problem for you ...

so yes I am Highly unnerved by the idea of one shot kill snipers of any kind, and while I have the utmost respect for the team on many issues this is one where I am willing to just assume whatever test data they have is inaccurate and SOE is making a bad call because of it!

----------------------------

NB I'm not hating on snipers, players who choose this style will find they are able to operate in a style much similar to that which they desired ... "stealthy" "Precise" "tactical" "skilled"
...when they do not have the Reaver swarm of hate hunting them down making them completely ineffective.

EASyEightyEight · 2012-01-07, 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by LongBow

NB I'm not hating on snipers, players who choose this style will find they are able to operate in a style much similar to that which they desired ... "stealthy" "Precise" "tactical" "skilled"
...when they do not have the Reaver swarm of hate hunting them down making them completely ineffective.

And we'll ALL have access to aircraft and jump packs. Not like we NEED to rely on somebody else to get vengeance for us. If the sniper stays put, he's as good as dead.

LongBow · 2012-01-07, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by ArmaGetItOn

Robin Walker made a great blog post on this issue several years ago talking about how they designed the sniper in TF2.

Ahh the TF2 Sniper ... the fix they eventually landed on to make 1 shot long range snipers "work" was to make them charge up to reach full power (no quick scope & difficulty of kill sprees) ... that combined with the relatively small maps and fixed predictable lanes of fire made the class work in the meta game.

While planetside could implement the charging weapon (and will have to find some way to prevent cloakers using it as a shotgun) the USP of the game (giant maps with lots of people) also prevents the traditional meta game fix.