Driver/Gunners... NO! - Page 25

SgtExo · 2012-07-12, 01:00 PM

But the point is that with a F2P game, you don't want to punish ppl for soloing, which could drive away ppl, but encourage ppl to team up, which can enhance gameplay and keep the player interested for a longer day.

So things like requiring a gunner for the tank is something that I can easily see driving ppl away from the game, while getting someone on the top gun to get stronger will encourage ppl to get some friends or join an outfit.

We need allot of ppl to have a healthy and thriving community in-game, so anything that punishes bad choices instead of rewarding good one is not the way to go. Because this game will be free, ppl might decide they do not like the game very fast if they get a bad first impression and because they have not paid anything for the game, they might quit very fast. So while in PS1 ppl bought the game and took the time to learn who it worked because they had paid for it, here ppl will make their mind allot faster.

That's what accessibility is all about, its about not punishing bad choices with game mechanics, but rewarding you when you make good choices and use teamwork. Also if ppl try to rambo, they will get wiped ass soon as they encounter a group. As this is 100% PvP, bad choices don't need to be punished by game mechanics because you will have over a thousand ppl ready to teach you that lesson.

Flaropri · 2012-07-12, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by vVRedOctoberVv

That's not the point. WE DON'T WANT A ONE MAN BATTLE TANK! It doesn't matter how it's balanced or anything else. We don't like it! That is core of the argument and what it boils down to.

Well said. I may not agree with you (primarily because I want to see more tanks in use and players enjoying themselves even on their own) but I can certainly appreciate you're ability to get your point across.

This is largely a matter of personal opinion. I think it's wasteful to pull an MBT in place of a lightning if you don't want anyone else to get in there with you, but I also think that it's alright for the driver to be able to shoot things with a decent weapon. That's how I view things, and outside of horrible play experiences in Beta or Live, I don't think it's going to change, just as I don't think I'll change your opinion either.

Hopefully, regardless of how it ends up going through, we can still have fun in the game regardless.

Originally Posted by Azren

Well, I don't know, why does the liberator have gunners, why isn't it manned by one guy like the MBT?
See what I did there?

The Liberator has a nose cannon the pilot can use though, so even if the specific comparison was wrong, the overall point is still valid.

Azren · 2012-07-12, 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by SgtExo

But the point is that with a F2P game, you don't want to punish ppl for soloing, which could drive away ppl, but encourage ppl to team up, which can enhance gameplay and keep the player interested for a longer day.

So things like requiring a gunner for the tank is something that I can easily see driving ppl away from the game, while getting someone on the top gun to get stronger will encourage ppl to get some friends or join an outfit.

We need allot of ppl to have a healthy and thriving community in-game, so anything that punishes bad choices instead of rewarding good one is not the way to go. Because this game will be free, ppl might decide they do not like the game very fast if they get a bad first impression and because they have not paid anything for the game, they might quit very fast. So while in PS1 ppl bought the game and took the time to learn who it worked because they had paid for it, here ppl will make their mind allot faster.

That's what accessibility is all about, its about not punishing bad choices with game mechanics, but rewarding you when you make good choices and use teamwork. Also if ppl try to rambo, they will get wiped ass soon as they encounter a group. As this is 100% PvP, bad choices don't need to be punished by game mechanics because you will have over a thousand ppl ready to teach you that lesson.

Sorry, but this logic is flawed on two bases;

1 - if it is a punishment to require a gunner and if this would hurt the community, why don't the devs make the liberator the sunderer and the galaxy weapons controlled by the driver too? All of these vehicles have their main weaponry setup for dedicated gunners.

2 - it is not a punishment to require gunner. Just think about it, the soloers can jump in a number of vehicles that are for single man. Take the Flash, the Lightning, the Reaver (or empire equivalent). These vehicles will be very effective (well, maybe not the flash).

The chagne in MBTs does not punish soloers, it punishes those who want a vehicle where they can be the driver only. We have no such vehicles in game in contrast with the abundance of solo vehicles.

Originally Posted by Flaropri

The Liberator has a nose cannon the pilot can use though, so even if the specific comparison was wrong, the overall point is still valid.

No, it is not. The nose canon on the liberator is by no means it's main gun. We are talking about controlling a vehicle and it's main weaponry here. It would be fine if the MBT drivers got to use a secondary gun, but this is not the case.

Methonius · 2012-07-12, 01:14 PM

I really hope they make a cert or something that allows you to have gunners and be the driver, because I really enjoyed being the driver with my friends gunning. I had lots of great times calling out targets and maneuvering my tank around making it harder for the enemy to hit us while my friend gunned for me.

SgtExo · 2012-07-12, 01:21 PM

I don't why ppl say that the lightning is a solo MBT, its not! The Lightning is made for scouting, maneuvering and flanking. The MBTs are made to hold the front line and destroy the enemies line. They serve different roles, so not allowing soloers to use a MBT alone is taking a part of the game away from them and thus that is a punishment for not being in an outfit. Because there is a second gun on the MBTs, the game is saying "You can use the tank alone, but if you make a friend, you could be even more effective!". That's what I mean by not punishing soloers.

Also trying to fly a plane and gun something that isn't fixed to your point of view would be really hard.

Sledgecrushr · 2012-07-12, 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by Methonius

I really hope they make a cert or something that allows you to have gunners and be the driver, because I really enjoyed being the driver with my friends gunning. I had lots of great times calling out targets and maneuvering my tank around making it harder for the enemy to hit us while my friend gunned for me.

I wholeheartedly second this vote.

Klockan · 2012-07-12, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by Azren

Sorry, but this logic is flawed on two bases;

1 - if it is a punishment to require a gunner and if this would hurt the community, why don't the devs make the liberator the sunderer and the galaxy weapons controlled by the driver too? All of these vehicles have their main weaponry setup for dedicated gunners.

2 - it is not a punishment to require gunner. Just think about it, the soloers can jump in a number of vehicles that are for single man. Take the Flash, the Lightning, the Reaver (or empire equivalent). These vehicles will be very effective (well, maybe not the flash).

The chagne in MBTs does not punish soloers, it punishes those who want a vehicle where they can be the driver only. We have no such vehicles in game in contrast with the abundance of solo vehicles.

No, it is not. The nose canon on the liberator is by no means it's main gun. We are talking about controlling a vehicle and it's main weaponry here. It would be fine if the MBT drivers got to use a secondary gun, but this is not the case.

The reason the driver is not controlling the main gun in those vehicles is because it wouldn't be possible to control that with just two hands. A tank controls perfectly with just a keyboard and a mouse though so it works, but having playing an aircraft with an aimable turret is impossible since you need one hand just to control the pivoting of the aircraft and the other to control the speeds and turning. Thus all aircraft guns the driver got access to are front mounted. The galaxy only got turrets so the driver get no gun and the liberators cannon is a turret as well. Why the sunderer pilot don't get to control a machinegun is beyond me though, would probably make them much more common.

fvdham · 2012-07-12, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by SgtExo

I don't why ppl say that the lightning is a solo MBT, its not! The Lightning is made for scouting, maneuvering and flanking. The MBTs are made to hold the front line and destroy the enemies line.

The MBT can scout, maneuver and flank.
So the solo MBT can do what the Lightning can do and more.

vVRedOctoberVv · 2012-07-12, 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by Flaropri

Well said. I may not agree with you (primarily because I want to see more tanks in use and players enjoying themselves even on their own) but I can certainly appreciate you're ability to get your point across.

Hopefully, regardless of how it ends up going through, we can still have fun in the game regardless.

*giggity* Well, at least somebody understands :P And, yeah, I'm not upset or in arms. We're just arguing because we got nothing better to do

I don't hate these folks for disagreeing with me, I hate them because they're NC and VS. They all need to die... Oh wait... They're going to

And one last comment on-topic, regarding the "Lightning isn't an MBT" thing somebody mentioned above me. I don't think anybody said it was. That's the gist, in fact. It's not an MBT, which is a big part of the reason why people don't mind it being solo. I think part of the reason people argue so much around here is they continually miss each other's point

Flaropri · 2012-07-12, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by Azren

1 - if it is a punishment to require a gunner and if this would hurt the community, why don't the devs make the liberator the sunderer and the galaxy weapons controlled by the driver too? All of these vehicles have their main weaponry setup for dedicated gunners.

As far as Galaxy and Sunderer, their primary role is transport, which is very different from Libs or MBTs (or fighters or Lightnings).

2 - it is not a punishment to require gunner. Just think about it, the soloers can jump in a number of vehicles that are for single man. Take the Flash, the Lightning, the Reaver (or empire equivalent). These vehicles will be very effective (well, maybe not the flash).

This I largely agree with, however, a lot depends on what weapons are available for each vehicle. It is very possible for MBTs to have different weapon access than Lightnings for example, and thus fulfill roles that the 1-man tank can't even with a single weapon being used. EDIT: Although honestly, I doubt that will be the case, and if it is, I would be down with fixing that.

The chagne in MBTs does not punish soloers, it punishes those who want a vehicle where they can be the driver only. We have no such vehicles in game in contrast with the abundance of solo vehicles.

Other than transports you mean, and, according to you (though I disagree, we'll find out shortly I'm sure) the Liberator.

No, it is not. The nose canon on the liberator is by no means it's main gun. We are talking about controlling a vehicle and it's main weaponry here. It would be fine if the MBT drivers got to use a secondary gun, but this is not the case.

We lack enough information to really comment on the power of the nose cannon vs. belly cannon. Certainly, it is likely for the belly cannon to have more versatility, and it may be more powerful, but that doesn't mean the nose cannon isn't a main weapon on par with a Reaver's AtG weapons for example (it may or may not be). You may be right on a whole with that, but we'll have to see the details to confirm.

TheDAWinz · 2012-07-12, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by vVRedOctoberVv

*giggity* Well, at least somebody understands :P And, yeah, I'm not upset or in arms. We're just arguing because we got nothing better to do

I don't hate these folks for disagreeing with me, I hate them because they're NC and VS. They all need to die... Oh wait... They're going to

And one last comment on-topic, regarding the "Lightning isn't an MBT" thing somebody mentioned above me. I don't think anybody said it was. That's the gist, in fact. It's not an MBT, which is a big part of the reason why people don't mind it being solo. I think part of the reason people argue so much around here is they continually miss each other's point

TR power!

MrBloodworth · 2012-07-12, 01:42 PM

Ill just post this again.

Driver gunner should be split. You should have to cert, at a high level in tanks, to operate the gun and drive. We already have the lightning.

Xyntech · 2012-07-12, 01:47 PM

In PS1, where the Lightning was just slightly too underpowered, I may have disagreed, but it seems like the Lightning is a pretty formidable solo tank.

I really have no good argument why the Lightning shouldn't be there to appease solo tank drivers while the MBT's require more team work.

But on the other hand, an MBT will be a lot more effective with 2 people than with one, so at the same time I don't feel very strongly that an MBT shouldn't have the driver controlling the main gun.

But either way, one way or another, I'd like to see some option for a dedicated driver with a gunner controlling the main gun.

SgtExo · 2012-07-12, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by vVRedOctoberVv

And one last comment on-topic, regarding the "Lightning isn't an MBT" thing somebody mentioned above me. I don't think anybody said it was. That's the gist, in fact. It's not an MBT, which is a big part of the reason why people don't mind it being solo. I think part of the reason people argue so much around here is they continually miss each other's point

But what I mean is that when I want to fight in the front lines I want a big tank and when I want to be a fast moving raider, I will take a Lightning. But allot of ppl have been saying that if you want a tank and be solo, go for the lightning. But I do not consider does two as filling the same role and just because I will want to play alone sometimes that I should be locked out of a vital role on the battlefield.

But what I wouldn't mind seeing in game is something even bigger than the MBTs. Something that the driver could maybe a small fixed gun of his choice up front and then a really big main gun and then one or two extra turrets up top for AA or AI weapons. Having a rolling fortress would be cool in this game because we actually have the population for it to be effective.

MrBloodworth · 2012-07-12, 02:01 PM

There are lots of other games that let you "Play alone, together".

But this is Planetside. Team work and combined arms in a war game. Not a single battle.