Why K:D, Deaths, streaks and other stats are bad, and how PS2 can evolve the genre - Page 26

Plunkies · 2012-07-22, 08:19 PM

Originally Posted by Blackwolf

What are you a effing mind reader? Can you learn all that by your silly little self based on text on a screen?

Don't put words in my mouth. It really is annoying.

K/D is something you learned to manage on your own. Whether you decide to be a killwhore or figure out how to balance it in your own time is up to you. I'm against removing the stat because I think it promotes self improvement. Being part of an outfit makes you count yourself as a valued asset more then numbers on the lower left of your screen.

But you want to remove those numbers in some weak attempt at promoting an optional course of action in a game. Without considering the desires of others.

First of all, it doesn't promote self improvement. It promotes doing what you're best at that gets you the most kills with the least deaths. That and self improvement are not the same thing.

TF2 doesn't record deaths permanently. As a result, I play TF2 to improve. I practice spy, I work toward objectives to try to win games, I try new things and I just do whatever is most fun at the time.

Starcraft 2 doesn't record losses so I work on improving my mechanics and macro instead of rushing and cheesing every game for cheap wins. Before this a lot of players simply wouldn't ladder because it was too stressful for people or too much negative feedback to keep them playing the game and having fun.

In contrast, BF3 records deaths and KDR prominently. Because of that I play with KDR in mind. If it wasn't there I wouldn't. I'll even throw myself under the bus just to make a point....

http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf3...ats/242563803/

That's what KDR does to my play. 50 MCOM placements in 1500 rush games, because why die when I can let a newb plant the MCOM while I cover and collect frags? I still play for my team, but never at the expense of myself (at least not in pubs).

Removing deaths is not a weak attempt at influencing actions at all. Most players will natural do what the game encourages them to do via score and feedback.

Originally Posted by Mythoclast

By that logic not showing deaths would make players completely not recognize the importance of being cautious when the situation calls for it. Avoiding death is not more important than taking objectives but it IS important.

People already know death is bad. Dying is already punished by telling you you died and making you respawn. Players are already discouraged from dying but it isn't made more important than it should be with permanent death stats.

Mythoclast · 2012-07-22, 08:22 PM

Originally Posted by Plunkies

First of all, it doesn't promote self improvement. It promotes doing what you're best at that gets you the most kills with the least deaths. That and self improvement are not the same thing.

TF2 doesn't record deaths permanently. As a result, I play TF2 to improve. I practice spy, I work toward objectives to try to win games, I try new things and I just do whatever is most fun at the time.

Starcraft 2 doesn't record losses so I work on improving my mechanics and macro instead of rushing and cheesing every game for cheap wins. Before this a lot of players simply wouldn't ladder because it was too stressful for people or too much negative feedback to keep them playing the game and having fun.

In contrast, BF3 records deaths and KDR prominently. Because of that I play with KDR in mind. If it wasn't there I wouldn't. I'll even throw myself under the bus just to make a point....

http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf3...ats/242563803/

That's what KDR does to my play. 50 MCOM placements in 1500 rush games, because why die when I can let a newb plant the MCOM while I cover and collect frags? I still play for my team, but never at the expense of myself (at least not in pubs).

Removing deaths is not a weak attempt at influencing actions at all. Most players will natural do what the game encourages them to do via score and feedback.

People already know death is bad. Dying is already punished by telling you you died and making you respawn. Players are already discouraged from dying but it isn't made more important than it should be with permanent death stats.

Looks like neither side is convincing the other side. Guess we'll wait and see what they decide. We fundamentally disagree with what happens if deaths are recorded. I think that your beliefs on it are not completely unreasonable but I disagree with what you think will happen.

(PS SC2 has no bearing on this. Not only is it primarily a 1v1 game but it also records how high up you get in rank which is based on wins and losses. Cheese is also used very prominently up to the skill level where it can't be used because it gets beaten. This shows the opposite effect of what happened to you. Gold and Silver are massive cheese fests but Platinum and Diamond aren't, not because they don't care about winning but because players of that caliber defeat cheese easily.)

Plunkies · 2012-07-22, 08:25 PM

Originally Posted by Mythoclast

(PS SC2 has no bearing on this. Not only is it primarily a 1v1 game but it also records how high up you get in rank which is based on wins and losses)

The reasons for its removal were the same. It was unnecessary negative reinforcement that didn't have beneficial impact on people's experience with the game. It was PURELY negative, just like death stats, and it discouraged fun and experimentation.

Mythoclast · 2012-07-22, 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by Plunkies

The reasons for its removal were the same. It was unnecessary negative reinforcement that didn't have beneficial impact on people's experience with the game. It was PURELY negative, just like death stats, and it discouraged fun and experimentation.

People don't experiment in SC2 except at top level play where they have to to win. Bronze players just mass units, gold and silver either use build orders they copy from others or cheese, platinum and diamond use build orders copied from others but executed better, only in higher diamond and the master tiers do you see lots of variation because you usually can't win just by following a premade plan.

DownloadFailed · 2012-07-22, 09:12 PM

Originally Posted by Blackwolf

What are you a effing mind reader? Can you learn all that by your silly little self based on text on a screen?

Don't put words in my mouth. It really is annoying.

K/D is something you learned to manage on your own. Whether you decide to be a killwhore or figure out how to balance it in your own time is up to you. I'm against removing the stat because I think it promotes self improvement. Being part of an outfit makes you count yourself as a valued asset more then numbers on the lower left of your screen.

But you want to remove those numbers in some weak attempt at promoting an optional course of action in a game. Without considering the desires of others.

Ok, first off, I read someone else's comment somewhere in the thread previously, so I wasn't referencing your post regarding the origin of KDR in PS1. I wasn't sure if it was in the game at launch. But regardless, my post still stands. Second, I did NOT say that we should remove deaths or KDR. Did you even read my post? We should (I'm gonna quote myself here) "take focus away from KDR that encourages selfish play and put it on a measurement like score."

I never put any words in your mouth. You're good enough at screwing them up on your own.

Tehroth · 2012-07-22, 09:13 PM

Okay on a serious note. Yes, Kdr and the such are bad for a game that requires teamwork like planetside 2 and yes, I might bail to save my skin a couples times(albeit I'll come back as a tactical retreat) however kdr have come to be a staple part of any fps and their community.

I always strive to gain a better kdr and to get more kills than my deaths.(Bf3) The only counter to this I suggest would be benefits to sacrificing yourself. If there are experience for being a martyr or something that benefited your faction in some way, but resulted in your death.

Medics should have a heal gauge, infiltrators a hacking score, ect so we know who the king of the castle is in those regards.

Tldr: Yes it is bad, but it also has benefits.

cHaM · 2012-07-22, 09:24 PM

4.44

StumpyTheOzzie · 2012-07-22, 09:40 PM

True story:

I was in an outfit (that was lame) and we had to breech a door. Normally the MAX would do that but he said via teamspeak "No, I'm not going in first. My K/D is 15 right now. If I die it'll drop to 7"

So I went in first and died horribly and quickly and then the MAX ran away, back out the back door.

About 5 minutes after that I left the outfit.

Now that's one example. I have many more as a tank driver. We had to take a tower and my gunner wouldn't get out to footzerg because he could get more kills when the TR poked their heads out the door.

I'm pretty sure all PS1 vets would have examples of this. A sizable chunk of people playing wouldn't bother with objectives because they could get a higher K/D ratio - and for what? What reason is there for a high K/D?

vVRedOctoberVv · 2012-07-22, 09:42 PM

LtHolmes · 2012-07-22, 09:50 PM

I agree with you that when worrying about you K/D ratio rather than playing as a team is a terrible thing. But, some people want to play to get their K/D ratio up. Planetside 2 is shaping up to look like it can suit multiple playstyles. What is the point of limiting/forcing some sort of meta game on people. They will find similar soldiers and make an outfit together.. problem solved. People that want to be more role playing can do that, people that want team tactics can do that, tank outfits, casual outfits, etc...

Any ways PS2 has an amazing stat tracker and it would be a shame for them to limit it in any way. On top of that, I certainly hope there are some NC snipers in the hills farming and worrying about their K/D ratio. Our outfit will be glad to get a coordinated Liberator bombing of the area and right the balance.

soulsurfsublime · 2012-07-22, 09:56 PM

I support this message, I am all for no death stats. However I don't think this is likely to happen in any modern FPS. That is why I hope to find a outfit or a group of players with the same mind set, where teamwork and winning are the priority. The same happens in BF3, the good news is there are just as many players more concerned with SPM as there are with KD.

Mythoclast · 2012-07-22, 10:02 PM

Originally Posted by soulsurfsublime

I support this message, I am all for no death stats. However I don't think this is likely to happen in any modern FPS. That is why I hope to find a outfit or a group of players with the same mind set, where teamwork and winning are the priority. The same happens in BF3, the good news is there are just as many players more concerned with SPM as there are with KD.

Exactly, why limit everyone else when you yourself can join a great outfit?

maradine · 2012-07-22, 10:11 PM

I agree that KDR incentivizes the "wrong" behavior in a large scale, objective-based game. However, the fact is, there's a large swathe of FPS players that judge their performance on it. We want to capture those players.

Rather than attempting to corral these players' behaviors by removing a visible success metric they desire, I'd prefer also we track and report on metrics that we consider more important, or that we feel properly incentivizes the play behaviors we think are "right". If that's captures, report and track captures. If it's breaking up a hack, report and track every time someone stomps a hacker.

We need everyone to make this game successful and give it a shot at real longevity - not the blasphemous necromancy keeping PS1 "alive". We can't cater to everyone perfectly, but we can provide incentives for most, if not all, playing philosophies.

Blackwolf · 2012-07-22, 11:05 PM

Originally Posted by maradine

I agree that KDR incentivizes the "wrong" behavior in a large scale, objective-based game. However, the fact is, there's a large swathe of FPS players that judge their performance on it. We want to capture those players.

Rather than attempting to corral these players' behaviors by removing a visible success metric they desire, I'd prefer also we track and report on metrics that we consider more important, or that we feel properly incentivizes the play behaviors we think are "right". If that's captures, report and track captures. If it's breaking up a hack, report and track every time someone stomps a hacker.

We need everyone to make this game successful and give it a shot at real longevity - not the blasphemous necromancy keeping PS1 "alive". We can't cater to everyone perfectly, but we can provide incentives for most, if not all, playing philosophies.

You are the one to determine what is more important? What about my own right to determine what is important? I play the game the way I want, not the way you want. I'll set my own priorities thanks, I don't need a babysitter trying to explain to me what matters more or less then what.

That's what you are trying to do here. You are trying to force a set playstyle on players of the game, you will never make money that way. The DEVs know this. Simple easy to understand stats are fine, and the easiest is KADR system (Kill/Assist/Death Ratio). Assist would apply to everything from shooting at someone that someone else kills to reviving someone and then they kill someone. Things you do that then enable other players to go out and do their thing. Easy.

The system isn't broken, stop trying to invent problems so that you can solve them. You make good points, I'll give you that. But I don't think the KDR stats are consciously or sub-consciously changing the way people play the game. I think most killwhores will always be killwhores regardless of their ratio and I think the KDR system is there for those of us who like to improve it.

Plunkies · 2012-07-22, 11:29 PM

Originally Posted by Blackwolf

You are the one to determine what is more important? What about my own right to determine what is important? I play the game the way I want, not the way you want. I'll set my own priorities thanks, I don't need a babysitter trying to explain to me what matters more or less then what.

That's what you are trying to do here. You are trying to force a set playstyle on players of the game, you will never make money that way. The DEVs know this. Simple easy to understand stats are fine, and the easiest is KADR system (Kill/Assist/Death Ratio). Assist would apply to everything from shooting at someone that someone else kills to reviving someone and then they kill someone. Things you do that then enable other players to go out and do their thing. Easy.

The system isn't broken, stop trying to invent problems so that you can solve them. You make good points, I'll give you that. But I don't think the KDR stats are consciously or sub-consciously changing the way people play the game. I think most killwhores will always be killwhores regardless of their ratio and I think the KDR system is there for those of us who like to improve it.

By your logic, why have a score system at all? Who are you to determine that X action is worth Y amount of points? Let them do whatever they want instead of babysitting them with a scoring system that incentivizes teamplay!

Neither Tribes nor TF2 show deaths because they realize that it's not conducive to a team based game. Just because some people like KDR stats doesn't mean it's good for gameplay. And I'm sure just as many people would rather NOT see those stats so why force it on the entire playerbase just to be more like COD or whatever. Just because deathmatch focused games have a KDR doesn't mean a team based games need one too.

Showing deaths WILL have a negative impact on overall gameplay. That is a fact.