Why K:D, Deaths, streaks and other stats are bad, and how PS2 can evolve the genre - Page 27

SixShooter · 2012-07-22, 11:31 PM

The OP was great in pointing out the flaws in the culture but removing K/D stats is not going to happen due to the exact same flawed culture. What we do know is that SOE will be providing massive amounts of data regarding stats and if they're not already planning on it, we need to make sure that they know that we need stats relating to all the different types of support roles.

Then we need someone to make iOS/Android apps and websites that does have deaths removed and focuses on SCORE and gives the info that most of the people on this thread are asking for. The people who want to focus on K/D can do that while the people who want to focus on everything else can do that as well. Everyone is going to have the tools to enjoy the game how they want to and isn't that what it all about anyway?

vVRedOctoberVv · 2012-07-22, 11:39 PM

Originally Posted by SixShooter

The OP was great in pointing out the flaws in the culture but removing K/D stats is not going to happen due to the exact same flawed culture. What we do know is that SOE will be providing massive amounts of data regarding stats and if they're not already planning on it, we need to make sure that they know that we need stats relating to all the different types of support roles.

Very reasonable and true, sir.

Mythoclast · 2012-07-22, 11:40 PM

Originally Posted by Plunkies

Showing deaths WILL have a negative impact on overall gameplay. That is a fact.

No it isn't, that is an opinion. Some of us have a different opinion. Don't be arrogant. Recognize the facts and opinions. You HAVE supported your opinion with SOME facts and so have we. But they are still opinions.

At this point you are either trolling (/bow) or you are so entrenched in yourself you can't even recognize another viewpoint. You may backpedal on the severity of your statement now (or not) but either way this statement is high evidence that you don't give a shit about a reasonable argument and therefore I bid you good day.

vVRedOctoberVv · 2012-07-22, 11:45 PM

Arguing video games is like arguing politics. Facts people don't agree with are ignored or called opinions. On both sides.

Mythoclast · 2012-07-22, 11:46 PM

Originally Posted by vVRedOctoberVv

Arguing video games is like arguing politics. Facts people don't agree with are ignored or called opinions. On both sides.

And extraordinarily strongly held opinions are called facts.

Blackwolf · 2012-07-22, 11:52 PM

Originally Posted by Mythoclast

And extraordinarily strongly held opinions are called facts.

And no one wants to call it how it is, BS.

Originally Posted by Plunkies

Neither Tribes nor TF2 show deaths because they realize that it's not conducive to a team based game. Just because some people like KDR stats doesn't mean it's good for gameplay. And I'm sure just as many people would rather NOT see those stats so why force it on the entire playerbase just to be more like COD or whatever. Just because deathmatch focused games have a KDR doesn't mean a team based games need one too.

Can you present a written and signed statement by the DEVs of Tribes or TF2 supporting your claim? No? Well then how the hell would you know? Also I seem to recall seeing a K/D tally at the end of TF2 matches...

It was an easy thing to turn them off in PS1. Fact is a lot of people liked to see their counts to gauge their over all success. No one's going to be so reclusive in an FPS game that they won't perform any action that may cost them their life, that would make playing the game pointless and unsatisfying.

As for teamwork, join an outfit and roll over them like the individuals they are. Stop crying because some people aren't going to be as prone to working with others as you. And stop trying to manipulate the player base with silly designs meant to solve a problem that does not exist.

I swear you people act like everyone will run around as a medic because healing people is suddenly the only stat they can see.

Mythoclast · 2012-07-22, 11:54 PM

Originally Posted by Blackwolf

And no one wants to call it how it is, BS.

How can you? If anyone did that their side would seem so weak. Most arguments are pretty damn close and calling it like it is just puts you at a disadvantage in an argument. Psh, honesty, yeah right.

Memeotis · 2012-07-22, 11:56 PM

As much as I agree Malorn, I don't think the solution would be to entirely remove 'Deaths'. I think the solution would be to make kills seem secondary, or even tertiary to the objective of the game. This would include things like removing the K/DR stat from the quick-stat-screen, forcing people to go digging through their entire stat screen to find it. And rather than removing killstreak; add more types of streaks. Capture streaks, revive streaks etc etc.The only problem with these other streaks is that they need a bit of extra balancing, for instance the revive-streaks would only happen if you revive three different people.

Gunnarr · 2012-07-23, 12:00 AM

Love the post OP, and the thought placed into it.

I was thinking along the same lines, but you put it much better then I could. Hope they do this.

maradine · 2012-07-23, 12:37 AM

Originally Posted by Blackwolf

You are the one to determine what is more important? What about my own right to determine what is important? I play the game the way I want, not the way you want. I'll set my own priorities thanks, I don't need a babysitter trying to explain to me what matters more or less then what.

That's what you are trying to do here. You are trying to force a set playstyle on players of the game, you will never make money that way. The DEVs know this. Simple easy to understand stats are fine, and the easiest is KADR system (Kill/Assist/Death Ratio). Assist would apply to everything from shooting at someone that someone else kills to reviving someone and then they kill someone. Things you do that then enable other players to go out and do their thing. Easy.

The system isn't broken, stop trying to invent problems so that you can solve them. You make good points, I'll give you that. But I don't think the KDR stats are consciously or sub-consciously changing the way people play the game. I think most killwhores will always be killwhores regardless of their ratio and I think the KDR system is there for those of us who like to improve it.

Soooooo, was I just not clear that I want the system to cater to everyone, including you?

Fairborn · 2012-07-23, 12:48 AM

It seems like both sides are very dead set on their opinions of the matter. So why not have the best of both worlds?

Let people who want to have KDR have it visible for them. It isn't fair to ask the devs to get rid of a stat some people like having tracked just because some don't.

Now, for people that don't want it tracked, have an option to hide that stat on the profile. That way when others look at their profile, they are being presented the information the player whose profile it is thinks is important.

This way, you can choose what you present to others and what you don't.

Have the cake and eat it too

DownloadFailed · 2012-07-23, 12:49 AM

Originally Posted by maradine

Soooooo, was I just not clear that I want the system to cater to everyone, including you?

The only thing he seems to be good at is ignoring those who argue against him.
You can go ahead and stop posting now, Blackwolf. You've made your point, and you obviously aren't listening to anyone else's.

Flaropri · 2012-07-23, 01:51 AM

Disclaimer: I have not read the thread, only the initial post, it is all I am responding to, and my comments may well be redundant with comments made by others. I am only expressing my own views here.

Re: "Why it's bad for the game."

I absolutely agree that when something is elevated it is viewed as the benchmark of success in this case. However, that doesn't mean that the existence of the stat itself is bad for the game.

For example, you later go on to talk about secondary "leader-boards" for kills and accuracy and such. Yet there's no reason to no also have "secondary" tracking of kills, deaths, etc. for a player. In the past, Kills and Deaths were the only stats tracked. Not accuracy, not preferred weapon or vehicle (or vehicle weapon), not even assists.

I say, that the problem isn't with the stat, but with presentation and lack of context. I'm not familiar with Battlefield so I don't know if it also keeps tracks of how many ammo packs you've thrown out, how often you have repaired a vehicle or anything of the sort, but I imagine it tracks far less than PS2 is promising to.

In fact, I would also say that KDR (or, preferably, KDAR) is potentially useful, especially when it is tied with weapons or specific locations. For example, if your KDR is significantly lower as HA than LA, you might want to look at the reasons for that, if you need to practice with HA more, or just use that information to dedicate more into LA.

Given context such as location, enemy type, you can also see what types of weapons and armor work best for a given situation. These are things you'll learn passively by gaining experience, but having the raw data does not hurt at all, and you can show it to others, especially new players, to support your theories (or others can look at them and say why you're wrong).

By not elevating it, and providing context, you can use that data to benefit the player (and the game to find imbalances and trends).

My Problem with "Score"

Score does not necessarily indicate results. For one, as you described it, "Score" would simply increase over time even in the absence of skill. You could, of course, apply a ratio: "Score:Time Played" but I don't think it's a good answer, especially since that can easily fluctuate wildly for new players (even more so than KDR), it also doesn't provide any useful information, since it doesn't give you context.

A Medic with a high score could mean that they have a great KDR, it could mean that they heal a lot, it could mean they've just played a lot, or it could mean they like to shoot their allies and heal them to pad their score. Score can still be useful, but only with context, and it requires greater context than KDR.

For example, League of Legends provides Score in dominion, and it tells you far less about what you have done right than KDA ratio and CS in regular play. Also, it always gives items and the champion used, so you have context, albeit still not a complete picture by any means, even so, you can understand why a given character might have a low score based on likely match-ups and roles. Score explains far less about the flow of a given game in LoL, and there are still debates about whether or not the scoring system is actually good or not.

I don't think Score is bad mind, I just don't think it should be elevated any more than KDR.

Conclusion: I think that the real thing to look at is providing more information than just KDR, to not elevate a given stat over another (and those players that do so automatically will either learn or not care anyway).

KDR can still be useful, and shouldn't be removed as a tracked stat, just don't put it on a pedestal, and provide context.

Removing KDR won't cost players, but it is removing a resource, and I'd rather have more data than less.

leecH · 2012-07-23, 01:55 AM

the games out there already evolved to a score/xp kind of scoreboard years ago. on top of that how can ps2 evolve the genre since the game itself is it´s own genre.

the threadtitle really makes no sense at all.

also the discussion about k/d is years old i see no point in bringing it back. either you are 16 years old and care about it or you dont.

Kezz · 2012-07-23, 02:09 AM

Originally Posted by Malorn

Deaths should not even be tracked...
...deathmatch in an open world. That's epic fail to me.

What you promote matters - so don't promote things that are counter-productive.

Score is beautiful. Score is awesome...Because score is awarded for any activity...

...Secondary leaderboards should exist for kills...[etc]

...Score is tweakable...
...So many options here to utilize this universal stat to shape player behavior.

Evolve the Genre

Planetside is a game-changer, and one of the best ways it can change the game is to improve the genre - get rid of that archaic 1990's stats and move to something better. Make a better game. Encourage better behaviors.

Removing deaths as a stat and promoting Score will not cost you players. Nobody will stop playing Planetside 2 because they dont' get to see a stat with their deaths being tracked. What they will see will encourage success of their empire.

Move PS2 forward. Get rid of deaths as a stat. Get rid of kill streaks. Just take it out and see how it plays. Bury kill whore stats and put them at the same level of importance as any other activity, like heals, revives, captures, etc. You won't miss them and you'll see people doing new behaviors they might never have tried before. Evolve the Genre.

Total agreement here. Sure, players like stats. But they'll like whatever stats they're given. If anything they'll like not being reminded how often they die from arbitrary battlefield events like your spawnpoint being stonked/overrun as you appear. "Score" gets displayed in your "combat log" pane, so you can see what you're doing to get it. There could be an option for it to pop as floating text, maybe, too.

The killwhores will still be able to see the notches on their rifle butt mount up. The revivewhores will be able to see the notches on their defibrilator handle.