Improvement: Happy Medium - quick-knife, assassinations and knives...

Ratstomper · 2012-06-15, 02:09 PM

We had a discussion thread on this, but it just turned into alot of arguing with no real improvement. So, I'm reposting this post from there to here because noone wants to even look at the other thread (understandably so) and it probably belongs in the idea thread anyway. I write this under the assumption that people will look at the topic logically, provide feedback and opinions and be willing to entertain the idea (at least temporarily) without this degrading into an argument thread.

Compromise for making knives fun for the most people possible:

1) Essentially have a quick switch button specifically for your knife instead of a quick-knife. Map it to an easy to reach key so that it quickly draws your knife and lets you use it as a standard equippable weapon. Press the key again and it switches back to your previous weapon. This makes it so that the knife is quickly accessible to someone who may want to finish off a wounded opponent who they've rushed or have gotten close to for some reason.

2) Adjust delays so that unsheathing is fairly quick, but resheathing takes a bit longer (if you've ever quickly pulled a knife out of a sheath and then put it back, you'll understand that this makes a lot of sense). You've whipped out your knife and finished someone off, but you've got some time before you can switch back to your previous weapon (1 or 2 seconds, which we've seen is pretty long with the current TTK) and if he's got buddies who've probably noticed you knifed their friend, you may very well be hosed.

3) Adjust damage values to reasonable levels. Allow knives to do moderate damage (30% sounds good to me, but may need tweaking) on all infantry (no MAX units/vehicles) from all sides. This means that if someone wants to run in rambo style with a knife, they will probably die. You'll have to be smart about when you use a knife, because you'll die before they will if you charge someone straight on with it.

4) Allow all infantry to cert into a knife tree that will allow one-hit assassinations if attacking from behind and using the knife's secondary mode. This will most likely be for infiltrators, but can logically be used by regular infantry (no MAX units) in guerrilla fighting and ambushes. Make it so the "kill area" is relatively small so you don't run into "Facestabbing" issues. Along with the sheathing delay, this adds additional commitment to someone who wants to assassinate someone with a knife and gives any nearby enemies at least some chance to respond to whats going on.

5) Make the secondary modes subtley give position away. In PS1, using secondary knife modes meant the knife made noise or glowed. I think for PS2, all knives should give off a faint sound when turned on. This acts as an audible cue to be on your guard and gives someone a bit of a fair chance before getting one-shotted.

6) (goes without saying) Adjust all values to a balanced state: Damage (standard and secondary modes), delay (sheathing and unsheathing), swing time, secondary-mode volume and range. Test and balance. Test and balance.

- TL : DR -
1) Give knives a quick-switch button instead of a quick-knife button.
2) Make it so that putting the knife away takes longer than pulling it out.
3) Allow knives to do moderate damage with standard attacks (no 1-hit kills)
4)Allow a certification that allows assassinations from behind while using the secondary mode on knives.
5)Make secondary modes for knives give off a faint sound to give somewarning to potential assassination targets.
6)Test and balance to make sure all values produce a desired and fun knife mechanism.

Lemme know what you guys think; constructive criticism, opinions and improvements welcome.

berzerkerking · 2012-06-15, 02:20 PM

http://www.planetside-universe.com/s...ad.php?t=43045
quick knifing is unfortunately established check my thread for a decent forward melee option.

Ratstomper · 2012-06-15, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by berzerkerking

http://www.planetside-universe.com/s...ad.php?t=43045
quick knifing is unfortunately established check my thread for a decent forward melee option.

I've read this topic and I'm ok with the bayonets, but that's not what this thread is about. It's a system that would have to be implemented, but hopefully improve the game for most people.

berzerkerking · 2012-06-15, 02:34 PM

While a counter skill should be available. A frontal knife assault should be fatal.
The counter could unbalance the opponent and leave him open to attack. there could also be a skill tree that increases stabbing speed. At the highest level attack and defense there would be minimized damages like 30% when countered and redirected. To clarify I hat quick knife but It will be there so unless they suddenly remove it. my above suggestion abount countering, and your thread is entirely superfluous.

Ratstomper · 2012-06-15, 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by berzerkerking

While a counter skill should be available. A frontal knife assault should be fatal.
The counter could unbalance the opponent and leave him open to attack. there could also be a skill tree that increases stabbing speed. At the highest level attack and defense there would be minimized damages like 30% when countered and redirected. To clarify I hat quick knife but It will be there so unless they suddenly remove it. my above suggestion abount countering, and your thread is entirely superfluous.

It sounds neat, but I just think that this and some of the other knife systems I've seen are putting too much stock into knives/melee fighting. Knives should serve a valuable (and balanced) purpose, but shouldn't be a focal point of the game.

Additionally, the more complex you make the system, the less viable it is to code and implement well. A super-convoluted melee system in PS2 will be the kind of thing that people go onto future game beta forums and bitch about how bad it was.

Don't get me wrong, if it were a different kind of game, I would be all for it. Also, I really like the idea of bayonets as gun attachments, so long as it's a simple system that doesn't detract from what the game should be: teamwork, tactics and (for the most part) guns.

EDIT: This is also what the idea forum is for: ideas to improve the game. I think if enough people don't like the quick-knife, they can implement another system for knives. I don't think that much is set in stone yet. The devs have shown that they're connected and listening to the community. The simpler and more effective a system we can think of, the more likely they'll be to do it, imo.

berzerkerking · 2012-06-15, 02:49 PM

Thanks for taking the time to write a well rounded response. I like your idea but with beta coming soon I would think that this would have to be a post launch change.

Ratstomper · 2012-06-15, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by berzerkerking

Thanks for taking the time to write a well rounded response. I like your idea but with beta coming soon I would think that this would have to be a post launch change.

It may come to that, but better late than never, right?

Zolan · 2012-06-15, 02:57 PM

This talk of back-stab, front-stab, assassinations, parry, riposte, knife-throwing, and assorted fencing talk is going way too far with a weapon of desperation...

It's almost like I'm back on the DAoC boards talking about mercenaries and blade-dancers.

Put in a rifle butt instead of quick-knife and give everyone an equip-able knife so they can be Klingons. Then convince the developers to add parry and back-stab and all of that assorted nonsense to the equip-able knife. It's just not going to happen with the quick-knife mechanic.

That is all.

berzerkerking · 2012-06-15, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by Zolan

This talk of back-stab, front-stab, assassinations, parry, riposte, knife-throwing, and assorted fencing talk is going way too far with a weapon of desperation...

It's almost like I'm back on the DAoC boards talking about mercenaries and blade-dancers.

Put in a rifle butt instead of quick-knife and give everyone an equip-able knife so they can be Klingons. Then convince the developers to add parry and back-stab and all of that assorted nonsense to the equip-able knife. It's just not going to happen with the quick-knife mechanic.

That is all.

Since you obvoiusly didn't read our disscussion before commenting. We know the how unlikely this is. We just want to gather support for the idea until it is no longer ignored. It's not like i'm going to stop playing if it doesn't happen. Let a brotha dream

Zolan · 2012-06-15, 03:27 PM

Originally Posted by berzerkerking

Since you obvoiusly didn't read our disscussion before commenting. We know the how unlikely this is. We just want to gather support for the idea until it is no longer ignored. It's not like i'm going to stop playing if it doesn't happen. Let a brotha dream

I read the entire discussion (only 3 actual posts) before commenting.

Ratstomper · 2012-06-15, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by Zolan

This talk of back-stab, front-stab, assassinations, parry, riposte, knife-throwing, and assorted fencing talk is going way too far with a weapon of desperation...

It's almost like I'm back on the DAoC boards talking about mercenaries and blade-dancers.

Put in a rifle butt instead of quick-knife and give everyone an equip-able knife so they can be Klingons. Then convince the developers to add parry and back-stab and all of that assorted nonsense to the equip-able knife. It's just not going to happen with the quick-knife mechanic.

That is all.

This thread isn't about fencing, countering, parrying, throwing or any of that. It's about a simple system for using the knife in an intuitive way as possible for as many people as possible.

The idea is to make it a tool with multiple uses without having to put too much else into the game. A rifle butt doesn't make any sense: What about players who aren't using rifles? Why use a rifle butt if you have a knife? How is a quick-riflebutt any different than a quick-knife? I think you need to put some more thought into your idea.

berzerkerking · 2012-06-15, 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by Ratstomper

This thread isn't about fencing, countering, parrying, throwing or any of that. It's about a simple system for using the knife in an intuitive way as possible for as many people as possible.

The idea is to make it a tool with multiple uses without having to put too much else into the game. A rifle butt doesn't make any sense: What about players who aren't using rifles? Why use a rifle butt if you have a knife? How is a quick-riflebutt any different than a quick-knife? I think you need to put some more thought into your idea.

Haters gonna hate.

Zolan · 2012-06-15, 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by Ratstomper

The idea is to make it a tool with multiple uses without having to put too much else into the game. A rifle butt doesn't make any sense: What about players who aren't using rifles? Why use a rifle butt if you have a knife? How is a quick-riflebutt any different than a quick-knife? I think you need to put some more thought into your idea.

Rifle butt, pistol whip, MAX arm slap. It makes perfect sense and everyone can use it.

Originally Posted by Ratstomper

Why use a rifle butt if you have a knife? How is a quick-riflebutt any different than a quick-knife? I think you need to put some more thought into your idea.

Well, for realism sake, you already have the rifle/pistol in your hands and thus it could be used "quickly" as a source of minor damage or perhaps a minor push-back in melee.

Like I said in the other thread, put a knife on your belt, unsheathe it, lunge forward, stab something, pull out the knife, and put it back into the sheath. If you can do that with one hand in less than 2 seconds, I'll change my mind about quick-knives.

berzerkerking · 2012-06-15, 02:54 PM

I pray to any God that will listen it will

Neurotoxin · 2012-06-15, 03:45 PM

What the heck is the real-life equivalent of quick knifing? Swinging at the air and hoping you hit?

If it is going to be an "instant death" kinda thing, then there needs to take longer to execute, and have a higher risk factor. Maybe instead of a quick knife, the combatant will grab their opponent and attempt to stab them to death? This is a bit more gruesome, but a bit more realistic as well.

Maybe it isn't used instead of a quick knife, but that the knife has to be drawn and in-hand to perform a grab-and-stab style execution? Maybe it does 50 damage every 0.25 seconds, and the victim (if they are fast enough) can do something like pressing a 2 or 3 arrow combination to break off their assailant?

I know this is a game and not real life, but... The reason why Knife beats Pistol at 6 feet or less IRL is because the knife-wielder will be able to stab and slash vital organs rapidly, while the firearm practitioner gets maybe 1 shot before they are being stabbed (unless that shot puts their assailant down), maybe 1 more shot before they are guaranteed to die from their wounds. Fully-automatic weapons may get more shots before the knife-wielder gets close enough to do work, but the longer barrel and use with two hands means it is easier to be cleared out of the way by a knife-wielding combatant.