Here's a picture the devs should really look over when making the minimap - Page 3

Erendil · 2012-03-25, 07:46 AM

Wow RFNB, that is an awesome comparison.

Originally Posted by Wargrim

I 100% agree with the OP. A minimap needs a lot of functionality and information. If you are worried about overloading it and confusing players not used to it, there is a very simple fix: Allow the players to set filters, just like with the large map at GDC.
( And the large map should also show a topographic map, and not just plain blue imho. )

Awesome idea. Minimap layers/filters that you could toggle on and off would be a great addition.

Originally Posted by Khellendros

The PS2 minimap needs to have all of the features and functionality of the PS1 minimap, and MORE. The PS1 minimap is the baseline, devs, okay?

Yep, absolutely. The PS1 minimap has been just about the best out of any game I've played, and removing any of its features for PS2 would be a step down, IMO. So for a baseline, it needs:

to be freely movable and placeable anywhere on the screen
to be resizable
to have a manual zoom in and out function (I used scroll wheel up/down in PS1) where we can specify the different zoom distances
to show the floorplan of the current base level you're in when indoors with clearly marked doors (I know PS2's bases don't have much in the way of indoor floorplans, but it's still useful)
To show friendly and enemy units and have MAXes and different vehicle types distinguishable on the map
Have the option to TURN OFF rotating radar so up is always NORTH on the minimap
A compass that circumflexes that minimap instead of just a compass bar
topographical features, with artificial structures (roads, bases, bunkers, etc) highlighted

Did I miss anything?

Here are some other ideas off the top of my head...

How about a color differentiation so we know which enemy empire each unit is on, instead of just red = bad?

Maybe some sort of day/night differences on the look and/or info on the minimap might be good too. Like the location of base/outpost light sources at night? Or real time lighting & shadows on topographic features that change with the position of the Sun. It'd be cool to see, but I'm not sure how useful it'd be. It might be pretty resource-heavy on our PC's too.

Stardouser · 2012-03-25, 07:54 AM

Originally Posted by Brusi

lol orgy of glow worms!

I honetly don't mind the 3D spotting, as long as it's not automatic, doesn't display when you can't clearly see the enemy and is subtle.

I wouldn't mind if they were a little more subtle than they are currently...

I think the Doritos in BF3 fit in quite well, because of the crazy TTK and how low the contrast between the players and the environment (lolbrown shooter). They really dumb the game down a bit, but also stop it from being as frustrating as operation flashpoint of similarly realistic games ;p

No, the doritos in BF3 do not fit well, this is a casualization and Robin Hood aid that robs from the skilled to give to the unskilled. It helps CAUSE the crazy TTK. Most Battlefield players use 3D spotting for themselves. Yes, you heard that right. They do not spot for teammates(except when you spot vehicles and you have no AT weapons). They spot because once the spot is up, it's easier to shoot at the enemy and especially if the enemy runs, it makes it easier to follow the enemy. This is extremely reprehensible.

BF2 did not have this crutch and it was not slowed down like milsim games.

And to the extent that the graphics make players hard to see without it, that makes it 2 wrongs and 2 wrongs don't make right. They need to reassign their art director to another department and find a new one.

waldizzo · 2012-03-25, 08:14 AM

The BF3 mini-map is a little confusing for me. It's hard for me to tell where exactly I am, unless I'm right next to an objective of course. In PS1, I could look at the mini-map and know exactly where I was. Then again I played a lot more PS1 than I have BF3.

I really liked the colored squad and platoon member markers. It was easy to say things like "gold 6, guy coming up behind you" 1 was always the squad leader. Easy.

What I'd like to see:
-Coordinates
-Squad / platoon members with directional arrows, squad colors and numbers
-Can move the map (and other UI elements) anywhere on the screen.
-Colored (not blue or black & white satellite view) with transparency settings. Would be nice to have on all UI elements.
-Waypoints
-Tactical drawings (would have to be togged of course). I really liked the map drawing in PS1, but to keep switching to the main map to see it really took a lot of time. It'd be nice to see things drawn in the mini-map. Either that or something similar to the old Rainbow 6 games.

Wargrim · 2012-03-25, 08:42 AM

Slightly relevant to the topic:

So yesterday, i was playing BFBC2, and i came across something i never encountered before. All of a sudden, the whole enemy team was 3D spotted permanently, and all of our team could see it. It remained that way for the rest of the round, even if i died, and enemies that died were still spotted after respawn. You can imagine the result, it was a massacre. I have no clue what that was, server side hack, admin abuse, a new bug i never saw before.. but apart from the ridiculous advantage it gave us, it was also a huge confusing mess. So many spotted targets, you hardly knew what to shoot first. So i am worried, that in PS2, with potentially hundreds of people in one single fight, it could also become quite messy without some pretty heavy restrictions on 3D spotting.

Like, only see those spotted enemy markers created by squadmates. Or require special equipment to even be able to 3D spot. If everybody can spam it, it will get out of hand imho.

Eyeklops · 2012-03-25, 09:10 AM

I would not be sad if they removed minimap. It's a crutch for people that want to ignore their surroundings.

Stardouser · 2012-03-25, 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by Eyeklops

I would not be sad if they removed minimap. It's a crutch for people that want to ignore their surroundings.

Just curious - are you referring to people who use the minimap to navigate geography, or the two dimensional spots of enemies? Or both?

Khellendros · 2012-03-25, 12:41 PM

I think only enemies that are currently being engaged should show up on minimap. I think having them show up on line of sight is a bit too easy.

Gandhi · 2012-03-25, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by Khellendros

I think only enemies that are currently being engaged should show up on minimap. I think having them show up on line of sight is a bit too easy.

Maybe this could be an ability/implant for the recon class. Line of sight to an enemy causes him to show up on the minimap of you and your squad mates. Everyone else would have to use the spotting mechanic to get the same effect. Teamwork!

Drakkonan · 2012-03-25, 01:21 PM

I remember, a month after BF3 was released, a dev had confirmed that the image was being passed around the studio, and that changes would be made to both the minimap and the respawn screen. I guess they figured out DLC makes money while making functional UI doesn't.

RNFB · 2012-03-25, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by Erendil

Wow RFNB, that is an awesome comparison.

I didn't make it, I just found it and it made me think of PlanetSide 2 and how much they want to copy BF3

Erendil · 2012-03-25, 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by Eyeklops

I would not be sad if they removed minimap. It's a crutch for people that want to ignore their surroundings.

I could counter that by saying that not having a minimap would be a crutch to those who wish to use stealth and other forms of subterfuge as their primary tactics. It'd be way too much of a farm for those of us who do pay attention.

The only real issue I had w/ it in PS1 was interlink radar.

Given the presence of cloaking suits, the size of PS2 bases and cont maps, and persistent nature of PS2, I think many people would find it too difficult to simply find their way around much less function as an effective soldier without it. I think they'd also find the scale of PS2 fights to be too chaotic, and coordinated attacks of any size would be way too difficult for the casual gamer.

Plus I really luv the RTS feel that it gives you, and the sea of red and blue dots really hits home the scale of the battles that take place.

Originally Posted by RNFB

I didn't make it, I just found it and it made me think of PlanetSide 2 and how much they want to copy BF3

Kinda figured that or you'd have probably removed the comments to DICE at the bottom.

Still a cool find, and since I don't play BF3 I for one probably wouldn't have seen it otherwise.

Stardouser · 2012-03-25, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by Erendil

I could counter that by saying that not having a minimap would be a crutch to those who wish to use stealth and other forms of subterfuge as their primary tactics. It'd be way too much of a farm for those of us who do pay attention.

The only real issue I had w/ it in PS1 was interlink radar.

Given the presence of cloaking suits, the size of PS2 bases and cont maps, and persistent nature of PS2, I think many people would find it too difficult to simply find their way around much less function as an effective soldier without it. I think they'd also find the scale of PS2 fights to be too chaotic, and coordinated attacks of any size would be way too difficult for the casual gamer.

Plus I really luv the RTS feel that it gives you, and the sea of red and blue dots really hits home the scale of the battles that take place.

Overall, I'm OK with a minimap. It's 3D spotting that's the problem, because even if you have a minimap(which is 2D spotting), you still have to locate the target with your eyes.

2D spotting is an appropriate middle ground mechanic, a balance between skill and help from the game. 3D spotting is a contemptible crutch, and I suppose I will partially buy your argument that no spotting is a crutch for stealth.

Note: What you call "minimap" is what we call over at Mordor "2D spotting", so "no minimap" essentially means "no spotting at all".

bigcracker · 2012-03-25, 04:07 PM

The little things are more important then the bigger ones sometime,Console kids could care less about minimaps the arenas they play in are auto aim and less tactical then a PC gamer.PC gamers want minimaps that are detailed and customizable that would be on par with the military.

Eyeklops · 2012-03-25, 09:44 PM

Originally Posted by Stardouser

Just curious - are you referring to people who use the minimap to navigate geography, or the two dimensional spots of enemies? Or both?

Both. I am not against having a regular map, but it doesn't need to be on the screen all the time. If you need to navigate, set a way-point and and follow the indicator on the main screen, and be aware of your surroundings as you move.

Shanesan · 2012-03-25, 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by Skitrel

No and no actually.

Its been made quite clear that gdc footage is nowhere near indicative of what they want and it should be taken for what it is - alpha footage.

Though there's a huge thread dedicated to this discussion.

Tapatalk.

Then why does this thread exist? Why does any topic on Planetside 2 exist? It was made quite clear that the minimap from GDC is no where indicative of what they want, right? Why even speculate? If it's there, currently in the game, it's apparent that the current path that they are taking, so changing it would require some discussion.

Don't kill conversation - link to the topic if you're interested enough to say one exists, please.