we need to see the scat max stats. ( devs please read)

[Maidere]

NC, please stop acting like VS with their precious Magrider. Thank you.

[Chewy]

Originally Posted by Shamrock

Some examples Pella in order of kills obtained just using a MAX.

(sniped to lower space)

May I ask how you filtered those stats? Did you only look at NC players and ignore TR/VS or am I missing something?

Using the leaderboards top 100 filtering by monthly with sorted by kills ( https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...t=100&view=All )
I found these people that have MAX in either their top 3 classes and/or top 3 weapons. Take note I am ignoring vehicle stats, this will toss off my data a bit but going through 100 players stats takes time. Putting filters over filters over filter that I have to do manually isn't something easy to do in a timely fashion and Im feeling lazy today.

#2 iEnz0 - TR - 17,134 Mercy kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...30193345/stats

#4 BuzzCutPsycho - TR - 5,616 Mercy kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...20696081/stats

#11 Daddy - TR - 3,088 Mercy kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...35589553/stats

#14 Zratul -TR - 2,383 mercy kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...88361697/stats

#16 ThundaHawk - NC - 5,053 Hacksaw kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...37565025/stats

#18 zoidbergenstein - TR - 1,167 Mercy kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...64394465/stats

#20 Ryebag - NC - 3,721 Hacksaw kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...35845745/stats

#22 Kanum - NC - 9,680 Hacksaw kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...35574049/stats

#25 TombombadiI - TR - 2,001 Mercy kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...20303681/stats

#27 Artorius - VS - 4,813 Cosmos kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...34862289/stats

#37 Nickxbx - TR - 348 Multilator kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...69420833/stats

#49 fingerlin - VS - 2,795 mix of Nebula and Quasar kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...23487809/stats

#54 Zircon1 - VS - 296 Quasar kills (looks like no dual for this player)
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...65982001/stats

#61 Sulphur - NC - 11,084 Hacksaw kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...5/statsSulphur

#62 Zer0range -VS - 678 Burster kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...39528129/stats

#65 HelteR8 - VS - 1,576 Nebula kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...88714225/stats

#67 MadGelo - TR - 716 Mercy kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...32368961/stats

#73 Phattie - NC - 4,047 Scattercannon kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...44047361/stats

#83 Panzer - NC - 9,301 Hacksaw kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...44062817/stats

#85 LeRoy - NC - 4,261 Grinder kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...30924177/stats

#90 goatlips - TR - 2,002 Mercy kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...24706737/stats

#91 pwqpwq - NC - 1,126 Hacksaw kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...70910353/stats

#92 MPaC - VS - 1,226 mix of Quasar and Nebula kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...11115185/stats

#94 NewCharacters - NC - 3,023 Hacksaw kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...36640865/stats

#96 Jerusalem - NC - 1,902 Hacksaw kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...31677745/stats

#98 Bequ - TR - 273 Mercy kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...83985809/stats

#100 Matlockk - TR - 1985 Cycler kills



Now after that is done lets see what we have. 27 out of the top 100 players for a months time (sorted by kills) use a MAX enough to give a worth at looking at.
The numbers per faction are.
TR - 11
NC - 10
VS - 6

Weapon most used per faction is
Tr - Mercy
NC - Hacksaw
VS - Nebula (?)

- DISCLAIMER -
Once more I say that I ignored vehicle whoring and a LOT of named players have MANY more kills than as a MAX (several thousands for most) and this skews the data a bit. There's also the "time played as" stat for the MAX I haven't stated that skew number even more (from what I remember TR FAR outnumber all others in that stat).
-end disclaimer-


Read this as you wish. My bias from putting this data out is going to keep me from giving the first opinion on the data. For now Im going to go get a drink and something to eat as doing this puckered me right out.

[Revanmug]

Originally Posted by WarbirdTD

I love that this guy is trying so hard to defend hacksaws and yet the stats of his own outfit show how off-base his argument is.

Sigh... I guess you are talking about me.

I'm not even defending scatter. I didn't even gave any argument to defend Scatter(except myself because somehow, I did something wrong) and that's the amusing part. All I said was if you make calls only with stats, there are other material that show balance is clearly broken. The vanguard was the best example.

Stats logic:

-NC MAX has 30% advantage score/min. = OP
Alright, this might explain the amount of forum whine.

-NC MBT 120% underperform score/min = UP
Doesn't explain why there is so little thread about how underperforming it is since most people believe it is mostly fine. Such a large difference should have been seen but I've yet to see anything about it.

Right now, most people are using those stats as massive proof but are completly closing their eyes when something isn't working along. That's annoying and it's the only thing I've been defending.

Somehow, I doubt most will understand or will search to understand. Ignorance is a bliss


EDIT:

Originally Posted by Chewy

Numbers

I don't think including people with less than a thousand kill will interest much people. Probably just interested in the leaderboard of kills with a MAX. Than again, I'm not sure what was the point of it.

I guess seeing a TR with 17k kills with those Mercy is amusing.

[Rumblepit]

Originally Posted by Chewy

May I ask how you filtered those stats? Did you only look at NC players and ignore TR/VS or am I missing something?

Using the leaderboards top 100 filtering by monthly with sorted by kills ( https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...t=100&view=All )
I found these people that have MAX in either their top 3 classes and/or top 3 weapons. Take note I am ignoring vehicle stats, this will toss off my data a bit but going through 100 players stats takes time. Putting filters over filters over filter that I have to do manually isn't something easy to do in a timely fashion and Im feeling lazy today.

#2 iEnz0 - TR - 17,134 Mercy kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...30193345/stats

#4 BuzzCutPsycho - TR - 5,616 Mercy kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...20696081/stats

#11 Daddy - TR - 3,088 Mercy kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...35589553/stats

#14 Zratul -TR - 2,383 mercy kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...88361697/stats

#16 ThundaHawk - NC - 5,053 Hacksaw kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...37565025/stats

#18 zoidbergenstein - TR - 1,167 Mercy kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...64394465/stats

#20 Ryebag - NC - 3,721 Hacksaw kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...35845745/stats

#22 Kanum - NC - 9,680 Hacksaw kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...35574049/stats

#25 TombombadiI - TR - 2,001 Mercy kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...20303681/stats

#27 Artorius - VS - 4,813 Cosmos kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...34862289/stats

#37 Nickxbx - TR - 348 Multilator kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...69420833/stats

#49 fingerlin - VS - 2,795 mix of Nebula and Quasar kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...23487809/stats

#54 Zircon1 - VS - 296 Quasar kills (looks like no dual for this player)
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...65982001/stats

#61 Sulphur - NC - 11,084 Hacksaw kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...5/statsSulphur

#62 Zer0range -VS - 678 Burster kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...39528129/stats

#65 HelteR8 - VS - 1,576 Nebula kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...88714225/stats

#67 MadGelo - TR - 716 Mercy kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...32368961/stats

#73 Phattie - NC - 4,047 Scattercannon kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...44047361/stats

#83 Panzer - NC - 9,301 Hacksaw kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...44062817/stats

#85 LeRoy - NC - 4,261 Grinder kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...30924177/stats

#90 goatlips - TR - 2,002 Mercy kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...24706737/stats

#91 pwqpwq - NC - 1,126 Hacksaw kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...70910353/stats

#92 MPaC - VS - 1,226 mix of Quasar and Nebula kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...11115185/stats

#94 NewCharacters - NC - 3,023 Hacksaw kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...36640865/stats

#96 Jerusalem - NC - 1,902 Hacksaw kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...31677745/stats

#98 Bequ - TR - 273 Mercy kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...83985809/stats

#100 Matlockk - TR - 1985 Cycler kills



Now after that is done lets see what we have. 27 out of the top 100 players for a months time (sorted by kills) use a MAX enough to give a worth at looking at.
The numbers per faction are.
TR - 11
NC - 10
VS - 6

Weapon most used per faction is
Tr - Mercy
NC - Hacksaw
VS - Nebula (?)

- DISCLAIMER -
Once more I say that I ignored vehicle whoring and a LOT of named players have MANY more kills than as a MAX (several thousands for most) and this skews the data a bit. There's also the "time played as" stat for the MAX I haven't stated that skew number even more (from what I remember TR FAR outnumber all others in that stat).
-end disclaimer-


Read this as you wish. My bias from putting this data out is going to keep me from giving the first opinion on the data. For now Im going to go get a drink and something to eat as doing this puckered me right out.

im sorry, but you may have wasted alot of your own time with this. thats a mess ,and im way to tired to even begin to break down how many things are wrong with your list,and the way you filtered it, lol.....

try this...

max, main class,kills,top 100, all servers......

[LoliLoveFart]

A common misconception is that statistics provide a measure of proof that something is true. Instead, statistics provide a measure of the probability of observing a certain result. It is easy to misuse the statistics in data analysis even to the point of misconception because statistics do not introduce systematic error which can be introduced into the data intentionally or accidentally. There are many associated variables in statistical numbers that the person analyzing the data does not see, and without further explanation or supportive data, one can easily come to the wrong conclusion and the data could be presented as facts rather than probability. If the source from which the data was gathered was not factual, then this will reflect a statistic that is misleading, biased, and based on false information, but those persons who might later interpret the data had no idea that the source was not factual, and as a result wrong information is publicized. Because statistics deal with numbers they often seem to be more convincing and less suspicious of false claim than descriptive arguments, but numbers can be easily manipulated in favor of someone’s opinion.

I'm not defending Scat Maxes, just be aware statistics can be skewed very very very easily.

[Lepalose]

A common misconception is that statistics provide a measure of proof that something is true. Instead, statistics provide a measure of the probability of observing a certain result. It is easy to misuse the statistics in data analysis even to the point of misconception because statistics do not introduce systematic error which can be introduced into the data intentionally or accidentally. There are many associated variables in statistical numbers that the person analyzing the data does not see, and without further explanation or supportive data, one can easily come to the wrong conclusion and the data could be presented as facts rather than probability. If the source from which the data was gathered was not factual, then this will reflect a statistic that is misleading, biased, and based on false information, but those persons who might later interpret the data had no idea that the source was not factual, and as a result wrong information is publicized. Because statistics deal with numbers they often seem to be more convincing and less suspicious of false claim than descriptive arguments, but numbers can be easily manipulated in favor of someone’s opinion.

I'm not defending Scat Maxes, just be aware statistics can be skewed very very very easily.

This is correct.

But again, I will say it is far better to have data to perform analysis on and have a more in depth discussion rather then just the non quantitative arguments that are going on currently.

Good analysis of data will hold up under scrutiny, and considering the intense interest of people on both sides you can bet there will be a fair bit of skepticism over any analysis. This is a good thing though, as the best analyses will come through.

[Chewy]

Originally Posted by Rumblepit

im sorry, but you may have wasted alot of your own time with this. thats a mess ,and im way to tired to even begin to break down how many things are wrong with your list,and the way you filtered it, lol.....

try this...

max, main class,kills,top 100, all servers......

And where am I suppose to do that? The only filters I can find on that leaderboard are One Life (greyed out. I would have used that instead of monthly but can't), Daily, Weekly, Monthly, Forever, Friends, All, World, and amount per page. Everything past that I have to look for myself by opening each and every page and reading it.

If the NC MAX is as OPed as you claim then it should be at least in a good % of monthly kills and not in a near 50/50 tie with what TR MAX users I found. It is your side that claims that a majority of fights happen in CQC areas, am I right? Then why does a, as you claim, OP class that rules all CQC fights not have a higher % than anything else when the majority of fights happen in CQC?

Granted what I pulled isn't great, but it is all I have around me to work with. That is the only site I know of that lets us get stats with any depth worth bringing into this discussion (sorry PSU stats page). Is there a stat dump I don't know of that lets one filter to that extent? If so PLEASE tell me, Id be happy to dig deep into that bitch and find something if it proves this either way. I'll put the egg on my face myself if it would end this crap. Just point me to where I can get what you are looking for. Till then this is all I can pull with what I have. At least I gave how I got my stats, what filters I used, how I used them, and why I pulled those stats. I didn't cherry pick information like Shamrock seemed to do and gave all of what I found.


It's been said before. Working with stats is a VERY confusing thing. You have to account for far more than just one part and need to see EVERYTHING all at once or it will end badly. I am working with a very limited information and could use the help. So please if you know of something I don't then point me to it.



Revanmug-
The thought of giving everyone, including the low kill count players, was to show that they are a MAX user and even in the hands of a low skill/time player something OP should stand out in their stats. After thinking over what I posted, I should have added "time played" with those kills. If that stat page shown a "deaths as" for players then it would also need to be added (Id LOVE to see this added). In fact a "deaths as" stat is VITAL for something like this and I have no way to get that data.

As an example of time spent as MAX with that 17K Mercy kill player and the 9.6K Hacksaw kill would be.
88 hours for the 9.6K Hacksaw kills
278 hours for the 17K Mercy kills

Odd, the NC player has 31% of the time played as a MAX as of the TR player, but has roughly 56% of the kills. That brings up a few questions alone. But from what I can see there is just so much getting in the way of things. Overall K/D is useless as both are aircraft whores and that is fucking with kill feed as well. Another odd thing is the weapons scores are equal between them, each Hacksaw has 1.7mil score and each mercy has 3.6mil score. So that falls in line near perfect with the number of kills being about half as well (to be honest I have no fucking clue how scores are added up)

There just isn't enough data to for me to sort out. From just what I see that lone NC MAX has an edge of the lone TR MAX but without a "deaths as" for each class/vehicle lost and a way to remove vehicle whoring numbers it is impossible for me to know anything with just 2 people.

There are reasons the public doesn't see raw data often. It is fucking hard to read if just one bit of missing and can be read any way you want in small samples.

[snafus]

Related.

[Mordelicius]

LOL. Sure nerf the NC Max. NC Max is only OP due to the existence of Biolabs. I don't use Max but I love Biolabs fights and they are good at defending doorsways.

But if Biolabs do not exist, the maxes would be balanced.
NC has the close ranged Max.
TR has the medium ranged Max.
VS has the sniper max.

While you're at nerfing everything OP. Nerf all Vanu weapons as well. Accuracy is absolute king in infantry fights. ROF is second.

NC has all the crap in this game, nerfing our only 'advantage' won't make a hell of a difference. Reminds me when the MBT were bugged. NC were all on foot literally and it didn't changed anything in terms of territories because our MBT is what you can call a "non-factor".

Have you heard? Vanu Waterson is gloating at the main forum after they capped Indar "12 hours" after getting the north Warpgate. An overpopulated TR can't do it. An overly organized NC can't either. But Vanu can do it like nothing.

Therefore, show all the Max K/D stats and separate pure infantry stats for all factions (minus the Max).

[EvilGAmmA]

I know my opinion will not be popular on this. I play both TR and NC, and as both I say the NC maxes are fine, it's just the other empires maxes are lacking and need to be brought up to speed.

Frankly what bothers me most about the game at this point , it's continually being watered down to suit the complainers. Less complaining more killing!

Like the changes being made to CE ie at and ai mines and c4, all retarded just allow engineers to disarm all of the above and leave them alone.

[Falcon_br]

Originally Posted by Mordelicius

LOL. Sure nerf the NC Max. NC Max is only OP due to the existence of Biolabs. I don't use Max but I love Biolabs fights and they are good at defending doorsways.

But if Biolabs do not exist, the maxes would be balanced.
NC has the close ranged Max.
TR has the medium ranged Max.
VS has the sniper max.

While you're at nerfing everything OP. Nerf all Vanu weapons as well. Accuracy is absolute king in infantry fights. ROF is second.

NC has all the crap in this game, nerfing our only 'advantage' won't make a hell of a difference. Reminds me when the MBT were bugged. NC were all on foot literally and it didn't changed anything in terms of territories because our MBT is what you can call a "non-factor".

Have you heard? Vanu Waterson is gloating at the main forum after they capped Indar "12 hours" after getting the north Warpgate. An overpopulated TR can't do it. An overly organized NC can't either. But Vanu can do it like nothing.

Therefore, show all the Max K/D stats and separate pure infantry stats for all factions (minus the Max).

Off topic

Dude the VS only have 25% up to 30% of players in waterson. The NC got from 33% up to 40%!
TR got Indar north gate for a long time and Indar was under TR control.
With the merge the NC got the highest population and Indar north gate.
Maybe for a full month or more, Indar didn't got conquered by anyone! TR almost did it sometimes, but the Vanu didn't allow it.
Now that the Vanu got the north gate, they conquered Indar in 12 hours, the NC of Waterson should be ashamed of that forever.
The best part that now we got tawrich tech plant that is easy to defend and you guys got hvar that it is under attack all the time.

[Shamrock]

Originally Posted by Revanmug

-First, Spell my fucking name right. Shouldn't be too hard. It's a completly unique name and I like it spelled right.

How about I pay more attention to spelling name's right and you learn how not to be rude and show some common courtesy.

-Second, that doesn't answer the question I ask about live stats. DO you think the Vanguard is the most awful piece of trash? Because stats believe so if we are using that as proof. I would like to point out that this was all my last post was about. I did not say my opinion if scatters were OP(lol shotgun) or not.

I happen to think the Vanny could do with an armor buff, its feels boxy, slow and easy to hit. But this thread is not about MBT's...


-Third, Yup I do use it. Never hide it. Why the hell would I stop using lol dual shotgun MAX in Bio lab huh? That's like telling me I shouldn't use the Piston on my LA because shotgun are OP. Get ready when I unlock that pump-action!
I always did say during beta that shotgun on MAX were a retard idea (actually, I find MAX to be a retard idea) but I was shoo down because I was removing "flavor." That was during the NC MAX Beta great extinction of course, when flamethrower were the only usable AI for NC. It was looking fabulous at least!

You were not up front about it when you made your post; ie you were less than candid. If I argue on behalf of something I or my colleagues use I first look at my own position and that of my colleagues, If I am a heavy user of the very thing I'm trying to justify I will open up with a disclaimer or I know my argument will be rebutted with claims of bias.

-Fourth, since you like linking kills as proof and that close to 4k kills is AMAZINGLY INCREDIBLE!!!!111!one!!1!

Your getting a little hysterical here, 4k may not be amazing to you but to majority of the player base and even a certain proportion of players on the leader-boards it constitutes heavy use of a MAX.
...
Do you think bolt action are OP as well? Just asking because you seem to have completly forgot that.
http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/3...lidiotpage.jpg


I guess the Lightning HEAT is also OP because I have close to as many kills with the few hundred vehicule destroy in addition.


-The final nail, I would like you to check that. You know, what was too obvious to be seen...
http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/3...etimeidiot.jpg

Your labeling of your jpg's "killidiotpage", "pagetimeidiot", again see first point, try to learn some common courtesy when discussing a point, the only person you make look bad when being rude is yourself.

NB: I may have many flaws, but being an idiot isn't one of them, I have a Masters in law and a Masters in business, I rarely meet lawyers that are more highly qualified than me.

As you see(if you can see), Max is far from being a class I play the most. Actually, I only use them for Bio lab. And the few rare and random Tower camping. Losing dual shotgun is the least of my worries.
...
But having the vanguard buff some more would suit me way more though. It will be buff right? I mean, it has horrible score/min compare to other tank and I'm using the same logic as some for the Scatter nerf.

Once again id happily see the vanny get an armor buff, but that isn't the subject of this thread.

EDIT:
Can we also add that Delrith has 53784 total kills? You could probably start crying about most weapon someone used with that amount of people killed.

The thread isn't about the sum total of his kills; its about a situational advantage the NC MAX has over and above the other 2 factions that is utterly disproportionate. You and your friends are well aware of this and to all intents and purposes appear to be fighting tooth and nail to maintain that unfair advantage.

[Sledgecrushr]

I would give up the nc OPness in biolabs for a max system that wasnt so very situational. I would like to be able to take my ai nc max outside like the vs and tr do and still be sucessful at owning people in the face.

[Shamrock]

Originally Posted by Sledgecrushr

I would give up the nc OPness in biolabs for a max system that wasnt so very situational. I would like to be able to take my ai nc max outside like the vs and tr do and still be sucessful at owning people in the face.

I would be happy to see that, the old PS1 scat (forgive me Hamma) didn't lay down even half the burst damage the PS2 one does, but what it did have was a chargeable shield which when fully charged virtually added another 30% onto your hit points, making them considerably tougher than TR and VS MAX's. This fits the NC design philosophy, slow, tough, hard hitting.

[Binkley]

It seems to me that Hacksaws are UP. At close range it takes two shots from a Hacksaw to kill someone, not even as good as a pump shotgun. Okay, rate of fire and DPS are higher than a pump, but look at those things! Seriously? Those massive three-barrel guns can't OSK and a pump shotgun can??