Lessons for PS2 in Blacklight's F2P model - Page 4

Vetto · 2012-07-09, 02:53 AM

I am not a Fan of BL, Way to much nickle and diming, While some idea are good. Even thou TB disagree it still VERY much feels like a "buy power" game to me.

Nash · 2012-07-09, 03:01 AM

Renting stuff seems like a good idea aslong as you can still permanently unlock something.
Rent a gun for a couple of days,.. try it out. If you like it, you but it. If you don't like it, you only lost ingame currency.

xnorb · 2012-07-09, 03:28 AM

The "buy loadout slots" is the worst thing possible.
Also seeing price tags on every single freaking item is horrible.
Renting - no fan of it.
Just like i don't like weapon/attachment unlocks the equipment should be
there right from the start for everybody to use.

In FPS games skill should be the determining factor, not which weapon
you use or which attachments you baught/unlocked.

Kran De Loy · 2012-07-09, 04:11 AM

The difference in power (which attachments are best) and the renting system are two different things.

As far the difference in power, Higby has said that the goal in difference in power for PS2 between a 5 year player and a 5 minute player is at most 20%.

Power is a very difficult thing to measure when taking into account that the 20% is based on the 5 year player getting all the modifications he wants for his personal play style. Because of that, TTK should be used as the measuring stick for differences in power. A player on a 5 year account could kill a target in 4 seconds, but put the same player in the seat of a brand new account and it should only take him 5 seconds to kill the same target.

The problems with BL:R is that the TTK is already less than 3 seconds and less than 2 in most cases. Because of that, minor differences between players and weapons becomes much more sensitive and is why I agree that BL:R feels like a Pay to Win game even tho, technically, it's not.

Also that BL:R's balancing between weapons doesn't really take into account player skill all that much, imo.

TAA · 2012-07-09, 05:10 AM

Originally Posted by xnorb

The "buy loadout slots" is the worst thing possible.
Also seeing price tags on every single freaking item is horrible.
Renting - no fan of it.
Just like i don't like weapon/attachment unlocks the equipment should be
there right from the start for everybody to use.

In FPS games skill should be the determining factor, not which weapon
you use or which attachments you baught/unlocked.

Buying loadout slots is a great use of a cash store. By buying a loadout slot all you are buying is convenience. You can still change the gear you use manually. I think its an excellent example of what sort of thing should be sold for cash only.

I have personally been converted over to the f2p model. I dont mind if there is a price tag on everything, and I dont mind if you can pay to get slightly more powerful items - as long as the starting items are always competitive at every level and as long as you can get everything that gives additional power via playing normally for a long time (ie. with substantial grind). For example the unlock rate in a typical COD or BF game is too fast for a f2p game, but the unlock rate in Tribes is a little (just a little) too slow.

F2P allows me to preview the game for free and to support it to the extent I think it deserves, while also allowing people that have no money to still play and have a good time. If I like the game I am fully prepared to pay a fair amount of money to match what I think the game is worth. In the case of an MMO that keeps me entertained for years that would be in the hundreds of dollars. In the case of a AAA FPS title it would probably be no more than $70-90 depending on the shooter, though additional content could get me to fork over more. A mediocre FPS title would be lucky to get $10 out of me, while a game that is good but not great gets a more moderate sum (eg. I felt that I would have paid up to $40 for Tribes upfront so that is what I sunk into it).

Its a better system than paying full price for a game when it first hits the market then realizing that the game wasnt worth anywhere near what you paid. Its not better if you are the type of person who only buys games when they are on sale months or years after they have been released.

Kran De Loy · 2012-07-09, 05:15 AM

Originally Posted by TAA

Buying loadout slots is a great use of a cash store. By buying a loadout slot all you are buying is convenience. You can still change the gear you use manually. I think its an excellent example of what sort of thing should be sold for cash only.

Though they really should have a minimum of 2 loadouts for new players and expanding past that for cash. Like League of Legends. Gives a taste of the convenience whereas the current policy of only granting one base loadout seems more of an affront to the player.

xnorb · 2012-07-09, 05:21 AM

Originally Posted by TAA

F2P allows me to preview the game for free and to support it to the extent I think it deserves, while also allowing people that have no money to still play and have a good time.

And here's your flaw.
As soon as it turns pay to win (and it does if you offer exclusive, better
content like weapons or upgrades for the paying players) it's difficult to
"have a good time" as non-paying player.
The 10th time you get killed by that payshop weapon with the baught
expanded clip it starts getting frustrating.

You know, i'm all in for giving the devs the money they deserve.
But IMO they only deserve the money if the core gameplay is not limited for
those who are there to play with the paying customers.

Dart · 2012-07-09, 05:21 AM

Ok let's clear up a few things:

I doubt there will be a renting system; Higby has already said once you buy it, it's yours.

He's also said, numerous times, you will not be able to buy guns with station cash. The are a "power item" and you will only be able to unlock them in game.

Finally the persistent aspect of PS2 will encourage a lot more people to spend money on their charactersthan I'm bl:r i suspect. Far more like WoW or rift, people will become attached to their character more than in say an arena fps. So cosmetic stuff will generate income.

TAA · 2012-07-09, 05:55 AM

Originally Posted by Kran De Loy

Though they really should have a minimum of 2 loadouts for new players and expanding past that for cash.

I think 1 loadout per class would be very fair.

Originally Posted by xnorb

And here's your flaw.
As soon as it turns pay to win (and it does if you offer exclusive, better
content like weapons or upgrades for the paying players) it's difficult to
"have a good time" as non-paying player.

As long as the items are not exclusive to paying customers there is no problem. People can pay nothing and grind for an item, or they can pay and get it quickly. I dont see the problem. One person might have a lot of time but cant afford to pay. Another has no time but can afford the money. What of people who dont have the time nor the money? They should wait for a Steam sale and pick up another game, or be content to play with the basic items when they do get a chance to play.

Originally Posted by Dart

He's also said, numerous times, you will not be able to buy guns with station cash. The are a "power item" and you will only be able to unlock them in game.

Finally the persistent aspect of PS2 will encourage a lot more people to spend money on their charactersthan I'm bl:r i suspect. Far more like WoW or rift, people will become attached to their character more than in say an arena fps. So cosmetic stuff will generate income.

I thought the idea was that you could buy costumes for real cash only, and you could buy guns for money or currency earned in-game. The key was that the guns were only sidegrades of the standard items so that the game wasnt pay to win.

Of course that is a lovely marketing half-truth. A sidegrade is a power boost in the right situation. Tell anybody with a fire and forget rocket launcher to choose: a rocket that takes 3 shots to kill a tank but fires more quickly, or a rocket that takes 2 shots to kill a tank but reloads more slowly. Which one do you think they will pick? They will pick the one that exposes them to the enemy the least - ie. the one that kills the tank in less shots. That is a power upgrade not a sidegrade. Every weapon will have their nice cutoff points where if you choose just the right sidegrade version it will be substantially more effective in a particular situation. People that pay cash will get those weapons quickly, and will have lovely additional loadout slots ready to switch into as the new situation requires. For example I will have my loadout for busting TR tanks, and I will have another loadout ready to bust heavy NC tanks. For anti-infantry loadouts I might have a loadout with a weapon that has less drop off in damage for fighting in the open, and one with a high damage drop off but more damage up close for fighting near bases. And so on.

I think that the cosmetic stuff will make money, but not as much as weapons and boosters. Sure people that love the game and their character will go and buy some new outfits, but outfits dont change the game experience. Using a different gun or using a booster does. That is what people will continue to buy over time to keep having a more varied game experience.

Gandhi · 2012-07-09, 07:08 AM

Originally Posted by TAA

Buying loadout slots is a great use of a cash store. By buying a loadout slot all you are buying is convenience. You can still change the gear you use manually. I think its an excellent example of what sort of thing should be sold for cash only.

I find it kind of offensive when you're only given one by default, but maybe that's just me. There's a difference between paying for convenience and being nickle and dimed at every opportunity.

MorioMortis · 2012-07-09, 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by Gandhi

I find it kind of offensive when you're only given one by default, but maybe that's just me. There's a difference between paying for convenience and being nickle and dimed at every opportunity.

I agree, and, in BL's case, it's even worse because it's not nickles and dimes, it's 5 or 10$ for something that provides little more than basic utility that should have been there from the start.

2 loadouts per class, or making them unlockable with in game currency (one of the good aspects of Tribes, and they are very cheap too), is pretty much minimal, just to be able to switch things out on the fly without it taking 2 minutes of the battle just to change your FS HA and AV launcher for a machinegun and a AA launcher.

TeaLeaf · 2012-07-09, 08:03 AM

Renting is a pretty nice idea and Blacklight does it pretty well. It hasn't worked in a lot of games, but what makes Blacklight different is that the rental prices are all fairly low and you have the option of 24hr rentals. I can do a 24 rental of a load of gear before playing tonight and then earn back the money plus extra for renewing the items the next day. You also get a free three day trial of most of the items when you get access to them so you don't waste money on stuff you won't use.

The default gear is also pretty good, the only real disadvantage is that it doesn't come with any tactical gear and it doesn't use up all its grenade slots. The basic assault rifle (usually with a different scope) is actually very popular even among richer players because it's overall the most versatile build.

I've spent £17 in game so far (2000 zen) which got me 3 pieces of amour and the revolver all as permanent which I thought was pretty fair as those are all items I will probably use every game. I don't see why anyone would pay for weapon parts though as it's fun to switch weapons every game or two and it costs like $4 for a muzzle mod. The price is good for items like the heal injector or cloak which are fairly versatile, but no one is going to fork out $20 for all the guns parts they need for a permanent custom weapon.

TAA · 2012-07-09, 08:12 AM

Originally Posted by MorioMortis

2 loadouts per class, or making them unlockable with in game currency (one of the good aspects of Tribes, and they are very cheap too), is pretty much minimal, just to be able to switch things out on the fly without it taking 2 minutes of the battle just to change your FS HA and AV launcher for a machinegun and a AA launcher.

I dont understand this. BF only has one loadout per class and there is no problem with that. Having multiple loadouts per class is a luxury. I even recall that I paid extra for that luxury in BFBC2.

MorioMortis · 2012-07-09, 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by TeaLeaf

The price is good for items like the heal injector or cloak which are fairly versatile, but no one is going to fork out $20 for all the guns parts they need for a permanent custom weapon.

And therein lies the problem; if that whole custom gun had costed 5$, you would have probably bought one (maybe even 2 or 3). As it stands, the company loses out on a lot of potential sales related to its best feature by virtue of it being overpriced, and the client feels like he's being locked away from a lot of the enjoyment of the gun (the heavy gun customization) simply because he has to spend so much to get access to a tiny part of it. In essence, everybody loses when things are too expensive, and the game dies much quicker than it could of (due to lack of interest from the true f2pers and because the game isn't making as much money), therefore further reducing potential income by losing more clients down the line.

The virtual economy is, by definition, a post-scarcity one, but everyone is still acting as if it where a standard, supply and demand based one, selling items at what is an abstract notion of "value" when in fact they have none whatsoever except in the eyes of the customer. If it doesn't cost anything to produce an item, than their is no minimum cost to recup, and to maximize your earnings, you want to price things at what the customer believes is the value of what he is buying (hint, a lot of us are cheap, so we don't really attribute a lot of value to small subsets of our entertainment when we live in a society where entertainment, due to the Internet, is already a post-scarcity resource, so the lower, the better). Of course, although lower prices tend to result in exponential sales, their is a soft cap on people's purchasing desire (most of us probably don't think it necessary to buy every single thing if we know we hate some of them), and as such, you want to strike a balance between demand and cost, a balance that is currently heavily skewed towards the cost side, resulting in overall lower incomes.

EDIT: I do agree that in some games, like the BF series, one loadout per class is acceptable, but due to the constant nature of warfare in PS, there is no real "downtime" to swap things out, and it would be nice (although not essential) to be able to do so rapidly.

Goku · 2012-07-09, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by Dart

He's also said, numerous times, you will not be able to buy guns with station cash. The are a "power item" and you will only be able to unlock them in game.

That doesn't ring any bells for me at least. I thought you could buy weapons with cash, but you could still get them in game methods only taking longer. I know I went back and forth with Smed on this in one thread. He said it won't be more powerful, but only variants that may potentially suit another players style more. I guess this could of changed as that was awhile ago.