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Old 2011-10-03, 01:54 AM   [Ignore Me] #46
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Re: Colorblindness: a response to T-Ray's Massively interview


Originally Posted by Captain1nsaneo View Post
Would switching out the Red for blue in the HUD elements fix this? Also wondering if adding an option to turn up the brightness on the teal and gold aspects for VS and NC would take care of it.

A worry: Making a color blind mode that makes it easier to pick out people at night. That would lead to players switching to color blind mode even if they didn't have issues just for another advantage.
I'm not sure it was ever the HUD that was the problem for me. It was especially difficult in the continent/world maps and it would be a problem if I was playing VS or NC against the other. If I were to be playing as one of those empires, I'd probably be doing a lot of griefing, so I just stuck with TR, and I knew to shoot the bluish looking guys.

And yes, it's hard to think of a good way to maintain a game balance that doesn't give an advantage to non-colorblind players.

I know for myself, my brain, while it can still process color, it processes color after shape, brightness and texture. I have to actually focus on color as an attribute of something in order to comprehend it. Those tests where you write the name of a particular color in a different color font and try to read off the list? I can do those without even trying, while they completely scramble a normal person's brain. (I only speak from my own experiences, not from the experiences of the colorblind population at large)

Originally Posted by Captain B View Post
With the stark differences between models you'll be able to tell at a difference. If you can't, then they're probably so far off you wouldn't be able to see color to differentiate them anyway. They'll be all black at a distance before you can't distinguish them by armor type anymore.
That would definitely be reassuring, if there's a recognizability similar to TF2 or some other visual style that makes it very apparent who is from what empire.

Originally Posted by Xyntech View Post
How about if you have color blind mode turned on, a bright easy to see circle appears in front of your allies when you look in their general direction (it could get smaller as they got further away so that you could still see most of their body). Anyone without the circle could be presumed an enemy.

You could play test it to make sure it was no more effective at identifying friend or foe than it is with the option is turned off for non color blind players. If it's harder to tell who is who past a certain range, the circle could match this by starting to fade away past a certain distance. Color blind players would just have to learn not to pop off shots at distant players without checking if they were a friend or enemy first, but if it was properly balanced, non color blind players would have to be equally careful.

With it only being on friendlies, it would give no advantage at spotting an enemy who is in the dark or behind cover. You still have to use your visual acuity to find the hard to spot enemies. After all, accommodating color blindness in a FPS is awesome, accommodating regular blindness in a FPS would be silly
This seems a decent enough solution...finding a way to grief less often would mitigate a lot of the handicapping.

Originally Posted by T-Ray View Post
Statistics say that 7-10% of all males have some form of colorblindness (usually red/green), and I imagine that PS2's player-base skews strongly male. Statistically, 10% of your players might not even be able to tell the difference between two empires. This seems to me a major concern, and something that needs to be taken extremely seriously in a game that relies so heavily on color cues. Do you have any colorblind people testing things? I believe that this is something you should strongly consider.

I don't want to be so presumptuous as to believe that I have any power to change anything, but I am so excited to play this game, and I want it to be excellent.
I have a couple of friends that are r/g cb, one that I went to art school with. I know how he dealt with it and it wasn't easy, being an artist in all.

Thank you for this post, I would like for you to respond to mine if you would...

ok, 10% of ALL males are colorblind
How many of that 10% plays video games? lets say 7% of the 10% play video games.

How many of that 7% play first person shooters? lets say 5% of the 7%

How many of that 5% will play PlanetSide2 lets so 3%

I am being generous with these numbers and I assume that a LARGE number of people will LOVE and play PS2. So if 3% is the most generous case...if you ran the company, what would be your orders?

The shape language is a large part of PS2 if all the characters were black and white, you would still be able to pick them out of a line up. Color will not be the only distingusing factor

I'm not trying to be insensitive at all, I just want to hear your thoughts.
It's cool, dude. I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my concerns.

Good for your colorblind friend, man. I'm glad that you've had that experience, because I know so many that go through art school to go into various fields and don't take much time to consider it as a problem. I have an art degree, too. I worked really hard to earn it. I understand that it's a lot to overcome.

Just to clarify, I wasn't saying the game needed to be designed around complete accessibility (colorblind, deafness, etc.), or that any game needs to be designed around accessibility. I just think that the nature of PS particularly lends itself to at least a level of consideration of the issue, being that it relies so heavily on color cues as the very identities of the factions. Take a game like StarCraft-- the factions are visibly differentiated enough that all the factions could be the same color and you'd still be able to tell which faction was which. I think, if I'm interpreting correctly, what has been inferred is that PS2 will be heading more in that type of direction, with other visual cues to present the same information in multiple ways. I guess that's my main concern is that there is a redundancy of visual information in a way that isn't overbearing or unbalancing. Like I said in my last post, I see testing at least minimally with a few colorblind people and getting their feedback on the readability of of the visual cues might offer some ways to improve the game, not just for the colorblind, but for everyone.

I think in a way, it's almost analogous to a localization issue. You want you game playable in a language that the player can interpret. You can't localize to every language, of course, either, because that is too costly, so I see the dilemma.

Statistically, I am in a fairly small minority of players, and I understand that. I'm extremely excited for this game, and the color issue in the first game was, while not a game-killer/fun-killer, it was definitely an obstacle for me to be able to be as effective a player as I could be (slow to read maps, slow to make friend/foe decisions). I'm glad, at the very least, that it's something that you've considered, and however you may or may not end up implementing any sort of solutions in the game, I appreciate you taking the time to read this and make me feel like my voice was heard.
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Old 2011-10-03, 05:36 AM   [Ignore Me] #47
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Re: Colorblindness: a response to T-Ray's Massively interview


Originally Posted by GTGD View Post
Too bad Planetside players are not a representative population, so you can't make those inferences.
Keep your emotional snide gushings for yourself, please. They add nothing here, which is why they are not quoted.

Planetside players are not a representative population? What DO they represent? A cross-section of the population of Mars? To state they aren't "representative" is something you can't infer.

Your "rebuttal" has no merit.

Last edited by Traak; 2011-10-03 at 05:38 AM.
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Old 2011-10-03, 07:05 AM   [Ignore Me] #48
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Re: Colorblindness: a response to T-Ray's Massively interview


Still don't see how it could possibly be a big deal to have a check box in the menu. There is obviously the capability to alter the coloration of your uniform. So put a check box that says color blind mode that overrides those colors and replaces them with something more suitable. Give it a slight downside so its not preferable for people who aren't colorblind, like it overrides your own customization too or something.

I could do that in Homeworld 13 years ago.


And its not like you won't be adding anything else to the game only a minor percentage will appreciate. I'd put good money on the number of people who don't care one bit about any lore/backstory you put in is greater than the number of colorblind people who will play. I concede writer time is cheaper than programmer time, but this is hardly a major change.

Last edited by CutterJohn; 2011-10-03 at 07:07 AM.
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Old 2011-10-03, 07:17 AM   [Ignore Me] #49
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Re: Colorblindness: a response to T-Ray's Massively interview


I feel for you colour-blind guys but if we change the colours we would no longer have Elmo, Barney and Smurf . That just wouldn't be PS.

Lets hope the shape differences are enough for target recognition. If not just kill'em all and let the spawn tubes sort them out.
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Old 2011-10-03, 09:06 AM   [Ignore Me] #50
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Re: Colorblindness: a response to T-Ray's Massively interview


Originally Posted by GTGD View Post
1. Math is not opinionated, it is objective.

2. Your math and logic is plain wrong.
1. is correct. 2. is not.

T-Ray's math is quoting the percentage of the WHOLE population that is represented by colorblind PS2 players. He's not accounting for the fact that the "non-colorblind PS2 players" group is less than the whole population of men in America.

If that was intentional, while I applaud his optimism (that every male in America will want to play PS2), I don't think that's a relevant calculation.

Otherwise, he needs to consider that 10% of all males are colorblind. Of that 10%, 7% play video games (I'm assuming he means 70% of the 10%, or 7% of the total male population. I'll continue using percentages relative to the whole population throughout, to mirror his numbers). Of the 90 percent of colorsighted males, 63% play video games. Of those, 5% of the total population are colorblind FPSers, and 45% of the total population are colorsighted FPSers. Now, from that, 3% of the total population are colorblind PS2 players, and 27% of the total population are colorsighted PS2 players.

So, 3% vs. 27% of the total population -- now, if we actually look at percentages of the estimated 30% of all males who play PS2, 10% of those are still color-blind. So as many as 1 out of 10 (male) players of PS2 cannot tell the difference between Vanu and NC by color. Is that a problem? Potentially. It's a big enough threat that I think some focus testing in beta and being open to some alternate solutions in case shape recognition isn't enough is warranted.


Originally Posted by DviddLeff View Post
Do we have any colour blind players here who would care to comment?
Yes, there's a color-blind player in this thread. IIRC, he said he had to go TR in PS1 so he can just shoot anybody who looks bluish (VS and NC alike), or else he'd get griefed out right quick.


Originally Posted by NapalmEnima View Post
Math Critique:

Ah, but the male population of PS2 will also be a subset of a subset etc.
[snip]
I certainly didn't hear an objections on that front to the color palate of PS1. I suspect that right there is going to be the biggest indicator.
I handled the subset of a subset above, but yes.
The objections not being heard was probably an indicator that PS1 tended to turn away (exclude) players who specifically wanted to play NC and VS (like my step-brother), or were just shrugged off if there wasn't a strong preference for empire as people just went TR (like the one poster in this thread).

I, for one, would like to see the game not exclude color blind potential players, because if it can get 10% more players without a complete redesign, I think it should. I *think* we've offered some workable solutions in this thread that wouldn't represent new major featuresets for the Forgelight engine that could assist in retaining colorblind players. For everybody who says "maybe the cross section of PS players isn't representative of the total population" -- why do you think that is? It would only be because the game presents barriers to some segments to play effectively. If you have the opportunity to remove those barriers, that's a benefit to the game.

You wouldn't exclude 10% (or less, I have no idea what the actual distribution is) of the players by saying "Anybody whose last name starts with 'J' will not be able to subscribe to our game", why would you exclude 7% who are color blind?

Last edited by kaffis; 2011-10-03 at 09:08 AM.
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Old 2011-10-03, 09:44 AM   [Ignore Me] #51
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Re: Colorblindness: a response to T-Ray's Massively interview


Originally Posted by kaffis View Post
For everybody who says "maybe the cross section of PS players isn't representative of the total population" -- why do you think that is? It would only be because the game presents barriers to some segments to play effectively. If you have the opportunity to remove those barriers, that's a benefit to the game.

You wouldn't exclude 10% (or less, I have no idea what the actual distribution is) of the players by saying "Anybody whose last name starts with 'J' will not be able to subscribe to our game", why would you exclude 7% who are color blind?
This.
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Old 2011-10-03, 09:47 AM   [Ignore Me] #52
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Re: Colorblindness: a response to T-Ray's Massively interview


Originally Posted by Rabb View Post
I feel for you colour-blind guys but if we change the colours we would no longer have Elmo, Barney and Smurf . That just wouldn't be PS.

Lets hope the shape differences are enough for target recognition. If not just kill'em all and let the spawn tubes sort them out.
We, those who are saying that color-blind options should be included, are not all emphasizing to change the colors of the game.

What we are stating is this: Make OPTIONS available so that colorblind players can have a non-imbalanced way of instantly recognizing friendlies and enemies that they can toggle.

My suggestion was a small extra graphic in player and vehicle names so the red or green becomes irrelevant. (Remember the little brackets that indicated someone was using Darklight? Not exactly a coding nightmare to throw in a couple ASCII characters in a standard player or vehicle name).

We are NOT saying to change the game for everyone else, just make toggleable options that can be used by colorblind players, and which would be annoying to others, so they won't bother with them.

Last edited by Traak; 2011-10-03 at 09:49 AM.
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Old 2011-10-03, 10:55 AM   [Ignore Me] #53
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Re: Colorblindness: a response to T-Ray's Massively interview


My brain hurts.

Far too much math for my liking in this thread.
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Old 2011-10-04, 12:12 AM   [Ignore Me] #54
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Re: Colorblindness: a response to T-Ray's Massively interview


Originally Posted by Traak View Post
Keep your emotional snide gushings for yourself, please. They add nothing here, which is why they are not quoted.

Planetside players are not a representative population? What DO they represent? A cross-section of the population of Mars? To state they aren't "representative" is something you can't infer.

Your "rebuttal" has no merit.
Looks like a nerve was struck. At least you realized your mistake later on and conceded that Planetside players are not a representative population of males.

As for the question of why not expand the potential audience, it's simple finance. It just doesn't make sense to spend money on something that will barely have an affect on revenue. Opportunity cost, it was reviewed earlier in the topic.

I know you think adding an icon or a couple letters will solve everything, but that isn't the case. You don't even know if we will be able to see enemy names or health bars by default. Sure, you could implement that stuff into enhanced targeting (assuming implants are in), but then you'll have the fresh tears of people with colorblindness moaning about how it isn't fair that the game basically takes up an implant slot.

The people with colorblindness are dealing with this kind of stuff every day, so why can't you?
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Old 2011-10-04, 01:55 AM   [Ignore Me] #55
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Re: Colorblindness: a response to T-Ray's Massively interview


Originally Posted by GTGD View Post
At least you realized your mistake later on and conceded that Planetside players are not a representative population of males.
There was no mistake made. If, for example, seven percent of men are colorblind, then seven percent of (potentially) PS-playing males will likely be colorblind.

So, if 70,000 players would be a potential extra userbase, out of 1,000,000, you dismiss that as being financially insignificant? That is more players than is presently playing PS, isn't it? And PS is still running.

Yes, we do not know if there will be name tags over players. It might be strictly recognizing the players by sight, in which case, players could still have options, on their computer, which do not affect what others see, that could make enemies and friendlies more obviously discernible. However, that would be something that would have to not be open to exploitation to implement.

If we had options to toggle enemies to be darker, and friendlies to be brighter, I don't think that would be a disruption of balance, no matter who used it. I used to recognize TR planes from afar, because they just looked darker than VS or NC planes.

Last edited by Traak; 2011-10-04 at 02:07 AM.
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Old 2011-10-04, 02:03 AM   [Ignore Me] #56
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Re: Colorblindness: a response to T-Ray's Massively interview


Originally Posted by Hamma View Post
My brain hurts.

Far too much math for my liking in this thread.

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Old 2011-10-04, 11:16 AM   [Ignore Me] #57
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Re: Colorblindness: a response to T-Ray's Massively interview


I would argue that the benefit definitely outweighs the cost. Here's the rationale:

7% of males are r/g colorblind. This doesn't factor in that caucasian males are more like 10% and that there are other forms of colorblindness that add another 2% or so. But just for the purpose of this argument, we'll stick with the base 7%.

Planetside players are not a perfect crossection of the general population. I don't think there is any statistic to indicate that a colorblind person is less likely to want to play an fps. I think if anything a colorblind player would just gravitate towards a game that is colorblind friendly. So I would argue that this would actually tilt the planetside playerbase to more than 7% colorblind if it is colorblind friendly. However, we'll still stick with the conservative 7% number, just to be fair.

Now, according to the Chinese interview with Smed, the development budget was over 50 million. So let's assume they expect to make at least double that in revenue over the years. That would be 100 million. Assuming that 7 percent of the playerbase is colorblind, they would account for 7% of revenue, which is 7 million. I think that definitely outweighs the cost of some option that slightly alters the color schemes on client side, or adds an ascii character or 2 to player names. Or hell, disables playernames for enemies and leaves them up for friendlies. We're not asking for you to reinvent the wheel here.

But one thing is for sure, the math coming from the other side of this argument is not productive. You can't look at the population of the entire planet, pick out how many are colorblind, then take the percentage of them that will play planetside 2, then determine how they compare to the population of the entire planet. It's like saying "we don't need these 300,000 colorblind 28 year old males in the USA because there are 300,000 non-colrblind 70 year old females in Timbuktu to make up for them" I can pretty much guarantee you that 0 percent of 70 year old females in Timbuktu will play PS2.
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Old 2011-10-04, 09:52 PM   [Ignore Me] #58
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Re: Colorblindness: a response to T-Ray's Massively interview


Well, I can speak personally I know two people that would have paye PS1 if they weren't colorblind.

That being said, don't give T-Ray a hard time he's an art director, i'm sure there's some of their engineers that read this forum that were on the floor laughing at his "Math"

I don't think that adding something that would just simply replace the red-green reticule with something like.. Orange and Purple along with the overhead names would take not very long, i'd imagine.
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