Compromise for the driver=gunner issue. - Page 5

moosepoop · 2011-09-28, 08:23 PM

the tanks can go head to head with 5 or 6 infantry, will outnumber the infantry outdoors. game will be unplayable.

Xyntech · 2011-09-28, 09:22 PM

Originally Posted by moosepoop

the tanks can go head to head with 5 or 6 infantry, will outnumber the infantry outdoors. game will be unplayable.

This is the kind of statement that makes PS1 players seem paranoid and irrational. I agree that if they don't change the driver being the gunner now, they aren't going to change a core mechanic like that during beta, but seriously? If tanks overwhelm everything else during beta and make the game unplayable, they are going to get nerfed to shit until it IS playable. Odds are they would catch that during internal and we would never even see it.

Can the topic at least be discussed from the point of people with differing preferences and and visions for what PS2 should be? If we are to assume the devs are willing to allow the game to be unplayable on the tank/outdoor front, why not assume they will make pistols 10x deadlier than rifles and give galaxy spawn ships a million hit points? It makes no sense. The developers may not be doing what you want but that doesn't make them incompetent.

kaffis · 2011-09-28, 09:39 PM

Originally Posted by Xyntech

If tanks overwhelm everything else during beta and make the game unplayable, they are going to get nerfed to shit until it IS playable. Odds are they would catch that during internal and we would never even see it.

Even if we don't ever see it, do you really WANT a "main battle tank" to feel like it's been "nerfed to shit"?

I want my tanks to feel meaty, powerful, and durable. To feel like a tank. To truly be a tank-like play experience, rather than a MAX for the outdoors with wheels and a bigger model.

To do that and maintain balance requires different demands when it comes to things like manpower and availability. Hence, timers and no single-man crew.

Captain B · 2011-09-28, 09:43 PM

I want the feel of tanks rolling over a hill to be "OH SHHIIII- GET BACK IN THE HOUSE!" not a routine shrug and going about business as usual.

Xyntech · 2011-09-28, 09:52 PM

I don't disagree, but I think there could be something pretty cool about 100 tanks rolling over the hill too and you just aren't going to see that as much if every single one of them demands at least 2 people to be a functional force.

I think there can be a happy middle ground. If it ends up being that catastrophic, maybe that core mechanic would be changed. Big things don't usually get changed that late, but if it's a big enough problem, who knows?

I think the idea IS that tanks WILL dominate open spaces. On the other hand, I suspect that the main cannon will not be as unstoppable an infantry killer as it used to be. Infantry, firing (somewhat) faster TTK anti tank weapons from cover/hiding places at vulnerable rear armor should mean that tanks become much less dominant in areas with a lot of places to hide. There are large places in planetside where pretty much NO fighting ever happens and the PS2 devs want to change that. They aren't going to change it exclusively by adding incentive to fight in those areas, because some places just don't work for infantry combat, even in PS1. Those places are going to need large enough vehicle populations to make open field battles interesting.

Captain B · 2011-09-28, 09:59 PM

I'd love to see a hundred tanks rolling over a hill, too, but not because they were sacrificed at the altar of Little Timmy and his ADHD. If a player wants to drive around solo, there's an app- I mean, a tank for that. It's called the Lightning. Great little drive, that, and it's pretty durable and nasty, particularly against infantry.

It also takes a few rockets and ends up a smoldering heap, and gets socked right in the nuts against any real tank in the game. BUT, if you want to drive around on your own, you can. There isn't any need to make EVERY tank a Lightning+.

I'd be cool if it meant a tank driver could auto-switch between driver and main gunner when the seat is empty on the fly, but being able to drive an upgraded Lightning with bigger guns and more armor by yourself? That's a bit much. We have the one-man tank already, and it works just fine.

Xyntech · 2011-09-28, 10:15 PM

Little Timmy didn't last very long in a Reaver compared to someone who knew their shit. Again, hopefully there will be options for more old school PS1 play styles, but bottom line is that the devs have made it clear that they intend to change this mechanic. We have seen in Air Cav that this does not destroy the game, team work, or any of that. Will the developers change their mind on this one? maybe, but I wouldn't count on it.

It's a change in design philosophy and they only way I can see it not making it into the final game is if it destroys the rest of the gameplay. That doesn't seem at all likely to me, despite what some of the alarmists think.

Don't misunderstand me, most of the people with concerns about this aren't being alarmist, it's just that this is obviously a very divisive issue. By all means, let the debate rage on, if it is this important to people than it should warrant consideration from the dev team, but again, I would be surprised to see them completely go back on this design choice unless it completely broke the game.

There is still time left to play PS1 for those who really can't stand the idea of change, but I've been playing the game again a bit recently and it isn't planetside. There aren't enough players for it to be planetside. Maybe those wanting 1 driver 1 gunner tanks are selfish and maybe I'm selfish to want the priority put on attracting a larger player base, but I will always side with more players, because that is the single most important component of Planetside to me. If it only is popular for 3 years but has a large playerbase for those 3 years, they will be a glorious 3 years.

Azren · 2011-09-29, 02:09 AM

Originally Posted by Hamma

We already had polls on the same issue - soon we would have to create a poll to decide which poll is more valid

Yes, and an overly complicated one at that

moosepoop · 2011-09-29, 04:53 AM

Originally Posted by Xyntech

This is the kind of statement that makes PS1 players seem paranoid and irrational. I agree that if they don't change the driver being the gunner now, they aren't going to change a core mechanic like that during beta, but seriously? If tanks overwhelm everything else during beta and make the game unplayable, they are going to get nerfed to shit until it IS playable. Odds are they would catch that during internal and we would never even see it.

this is not irrational. this is completely logical if you guys would THINK instead of trying to flirt with higby.

i said nothing about headshots or classes, because i thought them through and they were not significant changes. THIS is significant. you guys need to remember what it felt like to be tank raped, over and over and over, and wake up and take a stand.

we wait years for this game and you guys are all apathetic. whats wrong with you? if you dont like it either why are you arguing against me?

most of the arguments agaisnt me are so convoluted and bizzare it seems this forum is filled with autistics and housewives.

Xyntech · 2011-09-29, 08:54 AM

Originally Posted by moosepoop

i said nothing about headshots or classes, because i thought them through and they were not significant changes. THIS is significant. you guys need to remember what it felt like to be tank raped, over and over and over, and wake up and take a stand.

I have never said this is not a significant change. Quite the opposite. Where we disagree and where I was making the comment about irrationality is the idea that there is only one mechanic that can EVER work in a game and every other way of handling tanks will be doomed to failure and misery. This is just narrow minded.

Tanks should dominate open land and infantry should dominate places with a lot of cover. From what I have heard, it sounds quite possible to balance that with the new system.

Faster TTK's can only benefit infantry here considering that tanks already had the fastest TTK possible (OSOK, actually one shot multiple kills in some cases).

Frankly I don't think anyone here wants the game to be a disaster, but I disagree that this change is inherently bad. I think there is paranoia going on and you think there is apathy and autism going on. So be it.

TheRagingGerbil · 2011-09-29, 09:41 AM

Originally Posted by moosepoop

they want to implement a solo one man vehicle that can one hit kill infantry. wake up.

Wow, great statement for a game mechanic/system we know nothing about. The sky fall on your much?

I have faith in Higby and the rest of the devs.

They know how much of a failure BFR's were and I suspect that is the last thing they would repeat here.

There was a point in the BFR's life that they actually weren't that bad. I made quite a sport out of hotdropping on top of them with a jammer and hotswapping deci's. They were ridiculously easy to solo then.

There are a lot of ways to bring balance to the solo tank driver/gunner issue. Perhaps the barrel will be locked in a forward position requiring the entire tank to turn. Maybe it won't be able to be depressed below horizontal making you fodder to infantry. Maybe you can fire but it will require you to change to a gunner position bringing the tank to a halt. Lots of variables we no nothing about...

Azren · 2011-09-29, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by TheRagingGerbil

Wow, great statement for a game mechanic/system we know nothing about. The sky fall on your much?

I have faith in Higby and the rest of the devs.

They know how much of a failure BFR's were and I suspect that is the last thing they would repeat here.

...

No need to be a troll about it... so he has a different opinion than you, do you think it's OK to attack him just because you can not make any good points on the subject otherwise?

Blind faith in the devs - I'm sure you will be rewarded for that. We all know how well and swiftly they balanced lashers and biffers over the years, what reason could we possibly have to doubt them? Seriously...

Xyntech · 2011-09-29, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by Azren

No need to be a troll about it... so he has a different opinion than you, do you think it's OK to attack him just because you can not make any good points on the subject otherwise?

Blind faith in the devs - I'm sure you will be rewarded for that. We all know how well and swiftly they balanced lashers and biffers over the years, what reason could we possibly have to doubt them? Seriously...

With that attitude, why play the game at all? Why would you assume they wouldn't fuck up 1 driver 1 gunner tank balance as well? It certainly isn't like infantry stood much of a chance against a tank in PS1 in the first place.

There are a lot of legitimate points in favor of the PS1 style tanks in these threads, but a lot of these posts are sounding very much like the sky is falling and the developers can do no right.

There is a real possibility that they could screw up Planetside 2, but if they are that bad then there is no hope for the game at all. I haven't seen indication of that level of incompetence yet, so I choose to hear them out, especially considering that I can easily imagine countless ways to balance the new tank system myself.

Does it suck that some players may not get to do exactly the same things they used to do in PS1? Yeah, I legitimately hope that they get some options that make them happier. I don't want veteran players to feel excluded. I don't want ADD Timmy and his solo tanking to feel excluded either, because the team players will still have and advantage over him and he will provide another extra target on the battlefield.

I am liking the mindset of the developers: Don't force team work, just encourage and reward it. It seems very non exclusionary. I hope they include as many types of players as possible, as long as it's balanced. I think it can be balanced. Others are entitled to disagree, with legitimately differing view points, or doomsday fear mongering. The former is just a lot more constructive.

Azren · 2011-09-29, 11:18 AM

You do realise we are talking about a big multi company that has only one goal; profit? They will make the game in the way that attracts the most people, end of story. The part about pleasing the current PS 1 players just belongs there too; they want to keep these people to get a larger playerbase, nothing to do with loyality to us.

Now that this is out of the way: a game that allows every type of player to be happy is not really possible to create, however you can get close. If we stick with tanks (since that is the topic here) the devs could just add two types of tanks. One for soloers (ie. lightning), one for those who just want to drive (MBT). With this the issue would be instantly solved, but I don't see it happening.

As I see it the reason behind this is the very rushed developement. In march they were still only planning to make PS: Next, a grafichal upgrade for PS, in the few months they have till christmas (that is the time they have beta planned), they just do not have the time to add enough content in terms of vehicles. As far as I know deliverer, bikes, buggies, lightning all got scrapped. So they decided to simply mix the roles previously known as skyguard, light tank (lighting) and MBT into one to save time and "please" the palyers.

Xyntech · 2011-09-29, 11:28 AM

Of course making a profit is a big priority, it is their livelihood after all. I just am excited for the game and I don't see how anyone can be simultaneously looking forward to PS2 and assume that the developers don't know their craft and are sure to mess it up.

We don't have a ton of info, but in my mind it is clear that the new tank system will be possible to balance. If some people think it can't be balanced, I can see where it would be upsetting, but I strongly disagree with that view.

As for the rushed development, I couldn't agree more. It is clear to me that they are doing everything they can to put out a state of the art re-imagining of Planetside in as short a time as possible. This means cutter corners and trimming fat.

Trimming fat can be good, cutting corners can be bad. Time will tell if they get it right, but we aren't going to give them more time or money for the project just by bitching about it are we? All we can do is make our voices heard about what we think are the top priorities, which is something good that this and other threads are doing.