Plan C: We keep both, the Lattice AND the Hex - Page 5

Baneblade · 2013-05-28, 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by TheDrone

NOT about the pro's and con's of each system.

But it is about the pros and cons about keeping both. Yet you seem to want to ignore any post about that in favor of trolling your own thread.

Sifer2 · 2013-05-28, 07:54 PM

It's not a good idea to have multiple rulesets across the different continents. Not only will it be confusing for new players but it will make it harder to eventually implement the cross continental battles once warpgates are able to be taken.

Since they already said they are adding Battle Islands again I don't doubt some of those might have HEX territory systems in addition to all the other rulesets the minority screams for like no aircraft allowed. But on the main continents I think lattice is already proving itself to be superior in encouraging the large scale battles that the game wanted to provide from the start.

The thing is with HEX is that the system is just broken with anything less than peak populations. It only works during Alerts or double xp weekends as a result, and the rest of the time it's a miserable experience for anyone wanting large battles that feel like they matter to any degree.

basti · 2013-05-28, 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by TheDrone

So where do they have to go if they want to vote for a future Hex system that currently doesn't exist but they believe could be implemented?

Show me just one idea for the hex system that wasnt tried already. Go, show me.

Hint: you wont find it. The hex was tried for months, it failed, story over.

Kill it with fire now.

camycamera · 2013-05-28, 08:31 PM

honestly i don't see this happening. you cant please everyone.

Kail · 2013-05-28, 08:56 PM

It won't work to keep both just because the game rules need to be consistent across continents.

Personally I prefer the hex because there is so much cooler emergent behavior you can get from it with the proper encouragement, which it currently lacks. Oh well. Some people hate it as irrationally as they do tank-sized MAX units.

Side note: it boggles my mind that people associate the hex system with ghost capping, when the problem with ghost capping is always on continents that are under populated... which is a population problem and the lattice doesn't change that. And if you're getting ghost capped on a full continent... maybe you should stop waiting for "someone else" to go deal with that half squad of enemies.

Sifer2 · 2013-05-28, 10:51 PM

Originally Posted by Kail

It won't work to keep both just because the game rules need to be consistent across continents.

Personally I prefer the hex because there is so much cooler emergent behavior you can get from it with the proper encouragement, which it currently lacks. Oh well. Some people hate it as irrationally as they do tank-sized MAX units.

Side note: it boggles my mind that people associate the hex system with ghost capping, when the problem with ghost capping is always on continents that are under populated... which is a population problem and the lattice doesn't change that. And if you're getting ghost capped on a full continent... maybe you should stop waiting for "someone else" to go deal with that half squad of enemies.

Lattice does change it even at low population. Instead of one guy in an ESF being able to flip half a continents capture points in a couple minutes he can only hit two or three places which is easier to deal with. A squad of guys capping some place behind the front line is usually called back capping. Which is still doable under the lattice. Most people right now advance straight along the roads but the lattice doesn't require you to do that. If you have a link you could just fly around the zerg, and drop the base forcing some of them to fall back. I think some are just mad that when they do this now they face much larger resistance, and don't succeed nearly so easily.

psijaka · 2013-05-29, 03:07 AM

Originally Posted by Kail

Side note: it boggles my mind that people associate the hex system with ghost capping, when the problem with ghost capping is always on continents that are under populated... which is a population problem and the lattice doesn't change that. And if you're getting ghost capped on a full continent... maybe you should stop waiting for "someone else" to go deal with that half squad of enemies.

There's more to it than that.

Ghost capping will always occur when pop levels are low; nothing can be done about that.

The issue was that with the Indar hex one person (doesn't take a half squad) could run around behind enemy lines and have far too easy a time flipping CPs when they have a choice of 5-6 routes to move on from. I've done this myself in the past and it just becomes a bit silly. It takes a disproportionate amount of "someone else's" to put a stop to it because of the number of link options.

NewSith · 2013-05-29, 06:33 AM

Originally Posted by basti

Show me just one idea for the hex system that wasnt tried already. Go, show me.

Hint: you wont find it. The hex was tried for months, it failed, story over.

Kill it with fire now.

Basti, you should really search my posts.

Nobody ever tried making territories having more significant value. As stated - if ownership of Hex A allowed the use of Titan AP, Hex B gave Breaker Rocketpods, Hex C gave S-AMS, and Hex D provided Dalton, the hex system would turn out way better. Aye, on 1 condition - you shouldn't be able to pull these even from the warpgate. This very things rebnders Tech Plant benefit useless.

But just to be clear, I'm advocating the hex system against fallacies, I'm not saying it's better than the Lattice.

Snipefrag · 2013-05-29, 06:45 AM

Originally Posted by NewSith

Basti, you should really search my posts.

Nobody ever tried making territories having more significant value. As stated - if ownership of Hex A allowed the use of Titan AP, Hex B gave Breaker Rocketpods, Hex C gave S-AMS, and Hex D provided Dalton, the hex system would turn out way better. Aye, on 1 condition - you shouldn't be able to pull these even from the warpgate. This very things rebnders Tech Plant benefit useless.

But just to be clear, I'm advocating the hex system against fallacies, I'm not saying it's better than the Lattice.

That is a stupid idea, how the hell would you balance it? When a faction conquers a continent how the hell can the enemies take it back without AMS, rocket pods, titan AP or the Dalton? Secondly that game sounds infinitely more confusing, i pull my reaver.. o dear, where have my rocket pods gone? O DAMN we lost Leopardwood Nursery, never mind !

Please try to think of some more examples of how we could make Hex work, this is entertaining.

psijaka · 2013-05-29, 07:02 AM

Originally Posted by basti

Show me just one idea for the hex system that wasnt tried already. Go, show me.

Hint: you wont find it. The hex was tried for months, it failed, story over.

Kill it with fire now.

As someone who was once a supporter of the Indar Hex, I remain convinced that it could have been made to work if a meaningful resource/supply system were put in place and simple measures to discourage ghost capping introduced (for example require that the attackers occupy the control points for capture progress to be made).

However, this did not happen and we are where we are with an Indar lattice that is working well; even in it's first iteration, and this is where SoE should concentrate their efforts.

So I agree with your last point. Time to move on and fully embrace the lattice.

Sunrock · 2013-05-29, 07:06 AM

PS2 needs a much bigger hardcore player base for the hex system to work but without any real meta game it's hard to attract any hardcore gamers.

Ghost capping happens because the player base is not big enough to cover all the bases for one reason or an other. There is no game mechanic in the world that can 100% prevent that to happen. At least not if you want the servers to be online 24/7. So stop pretending that ghost capping is something that can be prevented at all times.

psijaka · 2013-05-29, 07:17 AM

Originally Posted by Sunrock

So stop pretending that ghost capping is something that can be prevented at all times.

Who said that?

NewSith · 2013-05-29, 07:17 AM

Originally Posted by Snipefrag

That is a stupid idea, how the hell would you balance it? When a faction conquers a continent how the hell can the enemies take it back without AMS, rocket pods, titan AP or the Dalton? Secondly that game sounds infinitely more confusing, i pull my reaver.. o dear, where have my rocket pods gone? O DAMN we lost Leopardwood Nursery, never mind !

Please try to think of some more examples of how we could make Hex work, this is entertaining.

It is balanced. Of course I put AMS there as pure exaggeration, since it is the most basic vehicle, but as for other weapons - INFANTRY captures points, not vehicles. Your statement only shows that infantry vs vehicles gameplay is imbalanced in the game, nothing more.

I stand by the firm belief that the root of all evils is the lack of incentive to defend. A hardcore incentive. Sunrock has it right, ghostcapping cannot be avoided, you can't discourage it by keeping it in, while doing something to reduce the amount of "point" of doing it. You need to give reason to people to respond to these hacks. My idea is that every hex should have its "face", and don't just be faceless soil that gives resources you don't really care about.

You don't necessarily have to go with the equipment lock model, there are gazillion of benefits a territory can provide. Starting with something completely insignificant like (*cough*) turret heat reduction, ending with large scale poximity radar for every hex connected

basti · 2013-05-29, 07:54 AM

Originally Posted by psijaka

As someone who was once a supporter of the Indar Hex, I remain convinced that it could have been made to work if a meaningful resource/supply system were put in place and simple measures to discourage ghost capping introduced (for example require that the attackers occupy the control points for capture progress to be made).

However, this did not happen and we are where we are with an Indar lattice that is working well; even in it's first iteration, and this is where SoE should concentrate their efforts.

So I agree with your last point. Time to move on and fully embrace the lattice.

The only thing that could have happend is making ghost capping even more important.

The issue never was the value of a Hex, the issue was that people didnt know what hex to defend next, because the attacker had to many options to attack.

Rstormrider · 2013-05-29, 08:16 AM

drone, people did have a place to vote. it was on the road map in the official forums. if people didnt want the lattice so bad, all they had to do was go down vote the hell out of it until the whole idea was crushed. instead, they didnt do anything when they had the chance. now we have the lattice being implemented with SOE dev team moving forward to make it better and give us the war we've all been itching for. its arrived finally, on indar at least.

the guy who said people are voting with their feet is speaking true. i logged in yesterday and found a que to get into indar. everywhere else no que. esamir had 2 battles going on my server, amerish was a ghost town, while indar continued to rage with easily 5 to 6 battles. 4 majors, 2 smaller ones.

if we have a game with mixed systems, its probably going to drive people away. if we have inter-continental lattice/warfare we're gonna have to go through a continent with a hex system (if your idea was to be put into place). i see myself, and many others logging out when that continent with the hex system is up next as the venue for battle. only people who are gonna stick around are the ones claiming they know "strategy" and "tactics" by circumventing the enemy and using the map as a coloring book. we'll be stuck there for ages! i shudder to think.