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Old 2003-04-15, 10:59 AM   [Ignore Me] #1
LLMerc
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NC just doesn't understand


I guess NC fanboys are afraid of loosing the edge that they currently have. I don't blaim them. So whenever someone screams nerf the phoenix, they cry out against it. They will say how the chaingun is overpowered or how the jackhammer sucks, how they SHOULD be better at long range etc etc.

What they need to realise is the jackhammer WILL be fixed, eventualy. In it's current state it's too useless not to fix. Hell, I'll scream at the devs if they don't. It sure is not worth the 4 points. So when that fix happens, what about the empire balance?

They will own at long range and at short range.

Now, I will say I'm a TR fanboy. So my opinions are biased. But here they are.

Chaingun is not overpowered. It is just unbalanced. By that I mean it is worth the 4 cert points but it's not worth say ... 5. WHat needs to happen is the jackhammer needs to be worth 4 aswell. The lasher is prety good but could use some more work.

Gauss is much better than the other 2 medium empire specific weapons. I'd like to see some of it;s acuracy lost. The pulsar still needs work.

The phoenix needs to have a line of sight limitation. It is the ONLY acurate weapon that does not. That is a huge advantage for the NC. It makes it VERY precise, and opens up very cheesy tactics.

(20 TR defend an AMS, NC can't even get close to it, 3 NC soldiers grab phoenixes and take out the AMS without any work, shooting from the safety of the base. TR or VS would have to go through the defences first. )

Lancer (event though it sucks) and phoenix can be used against infantry, Base turets etc etc. Striker will not lock onto a turet, will not lock onto infantry, has a HUGE COF when fired dumb fire, and it will not lock onto a max while it is on a tower balcony or tower wall. Lancer and phoenix do not have this problem. Striker will also not lock onto anything if being fired from the tower balcony (other than high flying aircraft). Add to that that even if it does lock, it will not keep lock if something obscures your sight, INCLUDING another infantryman, for just a brief second, while the missile is in flight. Thus, your locked on missile becomes bumd fire just because the left pinky of that max you HAD locked on is no longer visible. So ....

Work needs to be done to balance the empires. Phoenix is my MAJOR beef with the game, and as some people said, I will not buy the game if it stays as is. You can say "So don't buy it then" all you want. I'm not trying to scare anyone with my statement, I'm sure Sony will have plenty of other people buy it. I just say it to bring across to you just how strongly I feel the phoenix needs a fix. However, I will also not buy the game if Vanu are not given some sort of a boost (mainly lancer and pulsar) and if the jackhammer does not get a significant boost.

Fact is, NC used to kick ass because of their numbers. They still do, and they are even with the TR. You can't tell me a secret e-mail went around to all the good players of all the FPS games saying they should join the NC. The skill level of the players is prety even I would say. SO it only leaves one explanation.

Anyways, my bitching and whining sesion is over.

Flame on
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Old 2003-04-15, 11:06 AM   [Ignore Me] #2
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Interesting suggestions. Although I haven't got my CDs so...
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Old 2003-04-15, 11:22 AM   [Ignore Me] #3
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The striker does lock own to base turrets IF you can magically get a lock. I swear I've heard all the explanation for why you can put it on secondary fire and it might not be able to home in on a target, but when you are talking about phalanx and spitfires it is like winning the lottery if you pull the gun out and your reticle turns red.

I have said a few times that over all I think the phoenix and striker are balanced in some perverted kind of way. The changes they made to the phoenix a week or so ago make it much harder to use now IMO. While I do get pissed to no end when pansy asses sit behind a hill and guide missles around facility walls through the base courtyard and pound our AMS that is well hidden from site, I still think that is all it's good for. Bitch artillery and base turtling tactics. The TR striker on the other hand is the best AV weapon IMO. It makes all forms of enemy aircraft useless, any MAX caught outside a bases walls will get obliterated by striker fire as well. The striker is great because you don't need to be at extreme range for it to be useful. I've been bushwacked by MAX units and Reavers that get the jump on me at medium range and I've still been able to drop them with the striker. There is no way to do that with the phoenix, it's too cumbersome, too much reloading, and you can't afford to be going to the missile cam while you're trying to strafe and fire.

I'm not sure what to tell you, if the phoenix were to get nerfed, the striker would be the next thing that people complained about I think. Another thing people don't take into consideration is the fact that the differences in ROF between the cycler and the gauss are negligable at best.
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Old 2003-04-15, 11:44 AM   [Ignore Me] #4
Lexington_Steele
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You are looking at the trees but not seeing the forest.

Look at overall faction balance rather than ballance in each individual weapons class.

There is an overall balance right now and I do not share your belief that the jackhammer will see a significat boost.

In the state the game is in, TR is balanced with NC.

If there is a significant boost to the Jackhammer, then that ballance has changed and the phoenix should take a nerf. Until that boost arrives, the Phoenix should remain the way it is.
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Old 2003-04-15, 12:13 PM   [Ignore Me] #5
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It is annoying to be moving towards an NC base and see the 5-10 phoenix missles wandering towards you (and they still do 50 dammage to Inf, so not useless in any way!) However, and I've said this before... Get inside a base with a Chaingun, and watch the NC fall like wheat.

I have no problem with the Phoenix, let it be an uber weapon that only works out side durring the initial stages of an attack. I'd rather be good in the assault then in knocking Reavers outa the sky. Reavers don't take bases, CQB in Reinforced does that. And ATM TR with a Chaingun is near unstoppable in that regard. (by anything short of a MAX)

The thing is ATM every NC guy is taking AV and not bothering with Heavy... I can't even say how well the Jackhammer works because every NC assaulter I see is armed with a Gauss and a Phoenix. And the Gauss don't cut mustard when up against Other factions heavy weapons. I love all the complaints about "I'm 5 feet away shooting the TR guy with my Gauss and he kills me with a chaingun... it must be too powerful and should be nerfed!!!" It's a Heavy weapon, designed to mow down INF

The phoenix, and the Stryker, and what ever the Shrooms use are AV weapons... they should be (and are when used properly) good at taking down vehicles.

PAX
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Old 2003-04-15, 12:13 PM   [Ignore Me] #6
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I've heard various times that the vanu sovereignity have the biggest balance issues of all of them. But I havn't played it yet on account of their damn mailing screw up
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Old 2003-04-15, 12:39 PM   [Ignore Me] #7
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I'm going to play Vanu simply because I enjoy being the underdog. Everybody talks about how much balancing work they need. Bring on the challenge.
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Old 2003-04-15, 12:50 PM   [Ignore Me] #8
LLMerc
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The NC, in the current state of the game, still have a small advantage. It's in the ability to easily take out enemy AMS while the other 2 faction must rush it with vehicles/soldiers. However ...

If the Jackhammer is NOT boosted I will be VERY surprised. Like I said, I'd even bitch about it. Heavy assault is an expensive category, and it should give you a tangible benefit. A reaver cert is 4 points, and that vehicle is quite nice when it comes up against a vehicle. Thus, the jackhammer should be quite nice when up against an infantryman.

But saying the TR is balanced with the NC when taking into fact the unbalanced jackhammer and offsetting it with the overpowered phoenix is not beneficial to the future of the game.
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Old 2003-04-15, 12:53 PM   [Ignore Me] #9
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phoenix is balanced imho. 7seconds between rockets tends to suck. but no one mentions that, only that it does good dmg and is accurate. No one mentions that anyone doing evasive manuevers can avoid them since the turning sensitivity on them sucks. no one one seems to care it takes like 7-9 rockets to take out an ams. so lets see, 8 rockets at 7second shots (granted every single one hits) so we're looking at about 1minute to kill an ams with a phoenix. i know damn well the vanu and terran guns can do that ALOT quicker. ALOT quicker. sure they cant do it from the range the phoenix can but they have fast refire rates that can do dmg lots of dmg very quickly, while phoenixes get one big hit every now and then. balanced imho. Not to mention while someone is using a phoenix they are fodder for any infiltrator or sniper or anyone with a rifle thats in the area. Phoenix has lots of downfalls but people fail to see them

edit: i almost forgot to mention their complete worthlessness vs infantry, takes 5 sometimes 6 phoenix rockets to take out a infantryman, while the terran av weapon can kick infantry ass in medium range if he's smart.

Last edited by Delirare; 2003-04-15 at 12:56 PM.
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Old 2003-04-15, 01:11 PM   [Ignore Me] #10
Lexington_Steele
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Originally posted by LLMerc
But saying the TR is balanced with the NC when taking into fact the unbalanced jackhammer and offsetting it with the overpowered phoenix is not beneficial to the future of the game.
I disagree. I do not believe we need cookie cutter factions.

The game will be alot more dynamic, in th long run, if different factions have different strengths.

If all the factions are exactly the same, then it gets boring. It will be about who has the most troops rather than who uses the best strategies.

If you are TR going against NC, use strategies that allow you to get close quickly. Galaxy drops are incredibly useful for this. Once you get up close to the NC they are finished.

Now NC has to take a different aproach. Sorties that merely get soldiers inside a TR are not going to cut it for the NC.
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Old 2003-04-15, 01:11 PM   [Ignore Me] #11
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Delirare, I think you are wrong on many of your points.

First off, the phoenix does more damage with a single rocket than either of the remaining two anti vehicle weapons. It takes 5 strikers to kill a reaver, 15+ for an AMS. carrying 3 crates of striker missiles, I can only take out 2 reavers, 3 maxes and not even a single AMS, and that is if I live long enough to get them all off, and if none of them miss. (A lot do) So there is the evident amunition problem since yours is as bulky as ours but you get much better bang for the inventory space since one rocket counts for much more. Second, if 3 people are shooting reavers at an AMS, then it goes down prety damn fast. And all 3 are within the safety of the tower/base, well behind the front lines. In order ofr VS/TR to damage that ams they have to go THROUGH the front line, which is not a very easy task. And that a lot quicker thing ... you obviously haven't tried the striker. It's not all that quick. Sure, it's faster than the phoenix, but with the reload you have to do on anything except wraith basilisk and mosquito it gets very slow considering 2 phoenixes are as good as 4 strikers. Add to that the fact that a lot of them miss due to lock on issues and then talk to me about balance.

Granted, the striker is usefull, I use it all the time. It's the fact the phoenix is way too usefull that I am complaining about.

And I'd really like to know who died to a striker as an infantry man (other than some poor chap that got sniped as is on the brink of death). The striker has no homing capability on infantry and it is WAY to slow/easy to dodge in dumbfire mode, which you would have to do at extreme close range. A side arm would do a MUCH better job than the striker.
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Old 2003-04-15, 01:15 PM   [Ignore Me] #12
Lexington_Steele
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You can use a striker effectively against a MAX indoors since you can step around a corner, fire off a shot and step right back.

The phoenix can not do this at all and is completely usesless in this scenario. By the time the first rocket has hit, you are already dead.

There are situations where the striker is much more useful than the phoenix.
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Old 2003-04-15, 01:17 PM   [Ignore Me] #13
LesserShade
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Originally posted by SuicideSnowman
I'm going to play Vanu simply because I enjoy being the underdog. Everybody talks about how much balancing work they need. Bring on the challenge.
ooh yeah, you are going to have all kinds of challenges on your hands. They should just be renamed the Common Pool faction right now. althought the VS AI max is very hoss IMO.
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Old 2003-04-15, 01:23 PM   [Ignore Me] #14
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Yeah I'm hearing good things about the Vanu AI . . . but yeah, nothing fearful, amazing or even slightly impressive about ANYTHING to do with Vanu.

TR MAX's are locking down, TR CG's are owning, NC Pheonix' are laying shit DOWN, TR and NC tanks are having these great encounters all over the place . . . the Vanu, man, you aren't hearing SHIT about us. Maybe an occasional 'they fought hard', but never "And then the Vanu launched a massive hovertank offensive!' or anything.

They sound very common pool right now.
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Old 2003-04-15, 01:27 PM   [Ignore Me] #15
LLMerc
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Lex, the game simply can not stay as is. Leaving the jackhammer so unbalanced and saying "Well, NC has the phoenix" will not be beneficial. First of all, it's unfair to the other two empires. Take this example.

I did not count all the cert points, but lets say there are 50 total cert points when you add up all the certs. Now lets also assume all the empires are equaly balanced in tearms of overall empire weapon strengths. However, the Jackhammer is useless. So no NC soldier takes the jackhammer cert, leaving him with 4 points more to spend. All of them take phoenix and medium assault, but so do 90% of other empire grunts. However, 50% of other empire grunts take the heavy weapon cert. They are now balanced with the NC grunts, BUT they paid 4 more cert points. That means the NC pool is now at 46 total cert points, 8% reduction. Which is quite large in my opinion. Thats an extra reaver cert.

You could argue that in order to be balanced the NC would have to spend those 4 points elsewhere. But where? Any other choice would be from the common pool. Which means there is something about common pool that is causing NC to be even with TR and VS, but it's also available to those 2 empires, so they take it aswell, and now they are ahead etc etc. This may make little sense as I type it. But the point is simple. If the jackhammer has no use, it leaves 4 more points to spend for an already balanced NC soldier (through the power of phoenix combined with gauss).

And I am not even getting into the prowler/magrider vs the machine of death they call the vanguard.

P.S. There is also a small balance issue with NC being so strong at range while TR/VS must fight up close. It's the issue of grief points. It's much easier to get grief points while in a close quarters battle, than when you are lobbing rockets over a hill and sniping with the medium weapon which also works well in close quarters. So when taking a tower, TR have to rush in and close that gap, meanwhile wounding their friends.
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