Stolen Kills/Xp?

Iceman · 2003-08-30, 02:28 PM

Very Often, it happens that in a firefight, i will shoot at an enemy, but the guy next to me 'finish him off' and gets the kill and Xp.

The XPpoints system doesn't seem to 'distribute' XP amongs the users. What i mean is, if i inflict damage on a target, i should get Xp for it... even tho i didn't kill 'it'.

I was wondering if the Xp system could work close to the grief point system. While every damage point inflicted gives you and equal amount of Grief points. That could be a very good way to calculate XP on a 'damage/kill' basis... it would basically be an 'assist' system.

Any thoughts on that?

AcidCat · 2003-08-30, 03:10 PM

Sounds like you're a little too focused on XP to me. The system is fine as is, don't worry so much about it. And definitely don't resent your fellow troops for doing what they're supposed to be doing - killing the enemy.

Cease · 2003-08-30, 03:13 PM

Well I can give you a few answers to this, because I have thought about this as well.

Answer 1:

Its the purpose of being squaded and working with that squad. By this I mean a squad tha moves and fights together. In that case if your shooting at a guy, one ore more squadmates would be firing at the same target. A high probability that one of you get the kill and XP is shared. But the problem is the majority of squads don't really work together in that sense(its a shame too because its a blast that way). For the most part squads consist of 10 people who are following WPs set by the SL. Very rarely have I see squads that *fight* together. Rarely will you see a squadmate die, respawn and wait for others to respawn before trying again.

Answer 2:

Its a full circle. While you lose XP/Kills to someone else, odds are you have gotten a good amount of kills/XP by doing the same from someone else.

Answer 3:

Its an Empire vs Empire game - a big ass team game -- not a free for all. By that I mean all people with red names over their head are the enemy and all people with green names over their head are on your team. Don't lose sight of that. I've gotten a few nasty tells for "stealing" someones kill. There is no "stealing". If that person has a red name over their head, I'm going to try to kill them. Period. I don't give a shit if you "had" them or if that was "your" kill. There is no shortage of people to kill in Planetside -- get over it. And if you ever feel like sending someone a tell for "stealing" then go back and read Answer #2.

Nimbus · 2003-08-30, 03:31 PM

I really have to agree with the squad thing. It's a lot easier to kill with extra guys adding firepower to yours and you stand a better chance of survival. And again, you get xp for kills that any party member makes.

Another thing is maybe change your focus. Get a MAX or be a gunner on a tank or something else with lots of firepower.

People get really carried away with kill stealing. It was a form of harassment in EverQuest that was a serious problem. Games since then have been designed so that kill stealing really ins't possible or not an issue and people STILL cry foul whenever somebody takes a swing at something they were fighting. It's really disgusting. (No offense to the original poster, I'm just venting in general, the worse offender I found for complains of KSing was ShadowBane)

Mejwell · 2003-08-30, 05:00 PM

I could make a long post discussing all the possible solutions that could be created so people could get experience and wouldn't complain about "kill-stealing," but that would go against my principles. A dead enemy is a dead enemy for your entire dominion, and is better than an alive one anyday. My advice is that you try to forget about such trivial things such as frag counts and look at the larger picture: capturing and holding property. Besides, the experience that comes from killing enemies largely becomes nil when you reach the higher battle ranks, so you should be focusing more on the facilities anyway.

The bottom line is it's very unecessary to implement a whole new system for experience by damage.

Vick · 2003-08-30, 05:26 PM

I only care about killstealing in one situation: I am gaussing a guy across a pretty long distance, he is almost dead, then the guy right next to me JHs once, doing exactly 1 damage, taking my kill.

wts?

Iceman · 2003-08-30, 10:19 PM

well as a principle this is all fine.

Its a War against against another team so it doesn't matter if you kill or not, it only matters that the adversary dies.

I'm fine with that

Problem is, as of now, it doesn't do shit that you win a battle, reign over a whole island. Because the next day, it'll be all over and you'll have to do it again.

The problem i c with this is,

players need XP to get certifications

no problem there

To get XP, the player is required to kill or capture bases.

What ever happened to repair and heal?

The whole point of the game is to conquer something that is impossible to conquer...

In most MMOs out there, by getting XP, your character becomes better, gains more health points or Armor or whatever else. Although i'm not exactly in favor of that, as i like the fact that PS keeps the same Health/armor basic for everyone.

But then, XP is really not necesary in this game. Why not just give the players the choice of 'one of every class' of things, and be gone with it? That would greatly improve Teamwork and Gameplay value - in a battle against your enemy - principle.

But since its a MMO and players need to play for months and months to make money, in that process, i think some people actually forgot to pay attention to the XP/Kill ratio towards the actual gameplay.

Also, the SQUAD system is more of a Handicap then anything in terms of advancement in the game. Unless you want to gain CR points.

By yourself, killing someone will give you up to 200 xp, while in a quad, its usually around 15. The is no reward for working 'together'. Its the same XP as devided by squadmates.

Tactical chalenge or not, it doesn't do anything. Outfits would be better off using an external Voice-over-net program and play as a SQUAD, without actually 'being' in a squad. Things would go a lot faster that way for everyone.

right now, its only a not so properly working voice system, a chat channel (that you don't need if you are using VON) and a way to set waypoints... which is usually used to point at a base or tower. Again, players can do that on their own... ???

As this sounds like a lot of bitching, i do have to point out that i am playing the game, and am paying per month. And yes, i keep on playing.

But being a active, paying player of PLanetside, i feel its important i point out that this system is flawed, in too many ways, for a player to consider playing over 3 months. It requires around 1 week to aquirer 8 Cr. And unless someone wants everything, there isn't a lot more someone can use. And i estimate that at level 15, players do not need to buy anything else unless being greedy and going for the -

"well i get more, so that i don't need anyone to move around or kill"

Which is exactly at the opposite of the purpose of this game.

I play Vanu, we managed to take 2 whole islands, fighting our way in both, while the population was TR 40%, NC 31% and VS 29%.

And tomorow, only my 2 new CrLevels will be the only remembering of these events.

And right now... i'm really sad of that, because it didn't really matter. nothing was accomplished, nothing will be remembered.

Cease · 2003-08-31, 12:57 AM

I dont think your bitching at all. No offense, all of your complaints are long standing "standards" in the complaint department by PS players.

1> No real reward other than bragging rights.
2> Team based game, yet XP is WAY better solo than in a squad.

Youre not alone by any means in your disappointment in those areas. Honorable mentions go to:

3> No real measurement/reward for support classes
4> No real reward for defense.

As far as BR levels go, BR18 is generally all you will ever need. They key being at BR18 you have access to 3 implants.

If you want to make BRs quick, you definately want to go solo. You'll be BR12 in a week.

Nimbus · 2003-08-31, 10:04 AM

Alright, here's my take on this. No offense to anybody.

1> No real reward other than bragging rights.

What do you want? It's an FPS, not an RPG. The same thing happens with every other FPS in existance.

2> Team based game, yet XP is WAY better solo than in a squad.

You also get XP for kills you take no part in and if you have a decent squad you'll get way more kills than you would solo.

3> No real measurement/reward for support classes

No real skill or effort involved in healing either. You hit a button and it happens. Besides that, it's often done away from combat. Think of it more as a way to continue killing and getting more xp that way than something you can earn xp from directly.

4> No real reward for defense.

You get XP for every attacker you kill, don't you?

Problem is, as of now, it doesn't do shit that you win a battle, reign over a whole island. Because the next day, it'll be all over and you'll have to do it again.

Exactly. Thats the whole idea of the game! If you kept everything you conquered, pretty soon thered be nothing to fight over. If you want to keep something, you have to fight for it. If you want more, you have to fight for it. The game is designed to promote fighting.

But then, XP is really not necesary in this game. Why not just give the players the choice of 'one of every class' of things, and be gone with it? That would greatly improve Teamwork and Gameplay value - in a battle against your enemy - principle

Then if you decide you like something else better, you have to make a new character or spend days respeccing to get what you want. With the levelling up system you have things to look forward to and time to experiement with what you have.

But since its a MMO and players need to play for months and months to make money, in that process, i think some people actually forgot to pay attention to the XP/Kill ratio towards the actual gameplay.

There is no money in the game. Everything is free. There are no uber items and the only thing that makes you l33t is skill. Thats what I like about this game as opposed to everything else.

Remember, this is an FPS. The point of the game is to shoot people and blow things up. There is no money, no quests, no computer controlled monsters. It's you vs. human players on the opposite teams with a little bit of storyline to back it up and something to fight over which doesn't really matter in the long run. The point is just to have fun.

Iceman · 2003-08-31, 01:02 PM

Ok Nimbus,

I think you didn't get any of what was posted before.

THis game is a First Person ROLE PLAYER GAME. The game is based around gaining experience to acquire more stuff, hence, have your character evolve. its a RPG. ROLE PLAYER GAME.

ABout the Squad making more XP. DO the maths, You'll find that you make almost 20% less XP by being in a squad then by yourself.

Healing. Its not the 'Action' of healing, but the intention - especially in battle - that counts. A player who takes all his fighting time to heal and revive players during an -hour long- firefight is not rewarded by xp, and so cannot evolve like the ones he's reviving, who are all killing. I have adv. Healing and i heal pretty much everyone i see around. I don't ever get XP for that. In a 'RPG' based mentality (of our modern world), the question would be - why the f*ck do i keep on doing this?

As for defence. you get XP for killing... sure...
Have you not noticed that while all the players rush to the next base to conquer, suddenly, the bases you previously conquered are being hacked again? Ah yes!.. thats because no one dares to stay back and 'DEFEND' the base of futur incoming attacks. THAT'S defend. And you don't get shit for spending time (Monthly money) for doing so. So no one does it.

AS for the no rewards for conquering the whole planet... this part is really funny. The Goal of the game is to one day, see one of the 3 sides possess the entire planet. Of course that cannot happen because not everyone is there all the time, and islands are always turning around, owned by a different side... over and over and over and ... Now you are saying that you'd rather capture a base, then pull out and wait around it for the enemy to recapture it and then go back in? I am correct in that assumption? In that case, you SEEM like the kind of player who camps the Respawn tubes without capturing the base, just to get free XP. I'm not saying you are, but your quotation sure sounds that way.

AS for the choice of chosing one of each category of things (Certs) and go fight, you didn't get the whole idea. You can change those settings like you change CErts. Every 24hrs. But instead of gaining XP, you just are a specialised character, in some thing. That way, everyone depends on everyone else. But then again, thats against the MMO policy because players need some sort of rewards to keep on playing after months and months.

Which brings me to the money side, which you didn't understand either. I'm not talking about money in the game. I'm talking about your account. The money you give to SOE to play this game. You pay SOE to play a bigger version of Battlefield:1942, which only ends when you deside you had enought for one day and logoff. You never conquer to opposition like in BF, playing a campain. you rather win or lose a base -give or take an island- and then, when you logon again the next day, its all changed because no one stayed there to defend it, because no one gets XP in defending and its boring to defend, as it is to heal people because it doesn't really change anything since you can revive/respawn at a AMS just around the corner or at the adjacent tower, where there will be more killing and a cap at the end, to which continuity, you will move to the next base and start all over, until you logoff with a smile thinking you got a new Cr Level.

That's my point(s).

Now i understand my opinions on the subject are - subjective- hence the opinions. But i believe most of those observations are very Objective, since i sincerely believe they are flaws within the game. Big ones.

Nimbus · 2003-08-31, 03:09 PM

THis game is a First Person ROLE PLAYER GAME. The game is based around gaining experience to acquire more stuff, hence, have your character evolve. its a RPG. ROLE PLAYER GAME.

Taken from the official Planetside website:

PlanetSide is a MMOFPS (Massively Multiplayer Online First-Person Shooter) which means there are not thousands of public servers each allowing only 20 people to join, instead there are just a handful of servers each allowing thousands of players to play at one time.

ABout the Squad making more XP. DO the maths, You'll find that you make almost 20% less XP by being in a squad then by yourself.

From my experience you probably make at least 50% more kills as well.

Healing. Its not the 'Action' of healing, but the intention - especially in battle - that counts. A player who takes all his fighting time to heal and revive players during an -hour long- firefight is not rewarded by xp, and so cannot evolve like the ones he's reviving, who are all killing.

#1 if you were in a squad, you would be getting XP.
#2 In my opinion, a player who takes all his time in an hour long firefight to heal and revive players and ISN'T in a squad should be looking for a less social game.

Have you not noticed that while all the players rush to the next base to conquer, suddenly, the bases you previously conquered are being hacked again? Ah yes!.. thats because no one dares to stay back and 'DEFEND' the base of futur incoming attacks. THAT'S defend. And you don't get shit for spending time (Monthly money) for doing so. So no one does it

The rush to the next base to conquer is because thats where the fighting is. In how many other shooters do you sit on your ass in a place you just defeated waiting for enemies to come to you? If the continents had unlimited population you'd probably see defenders at the bases. In this case you just move forward because thats where the action is.

AS for the no rewards for conquering the whole planet... this part is really funny. The Goal of the game is to one day, see one of the 3 sides possess the entire planet. Of course that cannot happen because not everyone is there all the time, and islands are always turning around, owned by a different side... over and over and over and ... Now you are saying that you'd rather capture a base, then pull out and wait around it for the enemy to recapture it and then go back in? I am correct in that assumption? In that case, you SEEM like the kind of player who camps the Respawn tubes without capturing the base, just to get free XP. I'm not saying you are, but your quotation sure sounds that way.

The goal of the game is NOT to have one side rule all. Thats exactly what the game is designed to avoid! If one side wins, the game ends. This is supposed to be an endless FPS. You CAN'T win. I'm not saying you should take a base and withdraw so you can wait for them to take it back. The usual plan is to try and push your opponants completely out, then move to a new continent and leave that one to the buzzards.
No, I'm not a respawn tube camper. I'm generally flying a reaver or gunning in a vehicle. I don't give a crap about XP because I've already realized that this is an FPS and the damn XP isn't important. You kill, you get XP case closed.

AS for the choice of chosing one of each category of things (Certs) and go fight, you didn't get the whole idea. You can change those settings like you change CErts. Every 24hrs. But instead of gaining XP, you just are a specialised character, in some thing. That way, everyone depends on everyone else. But then again, thats against the MMO policy because players need some sort of rewards to keep on playing after months and months.

I've got no beef with you here. I was just trying to suggest an alternative viewpoint. Discussions are no fun if they are one-sided.

Which brings me to the money side, which you didn't understand either. I'm not talking about money in the game. I'm talking about your account. The money you give to SOE to play this game. You pay SOE to play a bigger version of Battlefield:1942, which only ends when you deside you had enought for one day and logoff. You never conquer to opposition like in BF, playing a campain. you rather win or lose a base -give or take an island- and then, when you logon again the next day, its all changed because no one stayed there to defend it, because no one gets XP in defending and its boring to defend, as it is to heal people because it doesn't really change anything since you can revive/respawn at a AMS just around the corner or at the adjacent tower, where there will be more killing and a cap at the end, to which continuity, you will move to the next base and start all over, until you logoff with a smile thinking you got a new Cr Level.

Yep, this is what the game is. No, you don't have to pay a fee for Battlefield 1942. But with Battlefield 1942 you don't get to play with and against hundreds of other people at a time and you don't get a constant supply of new and updated content. Comparing at MMO to the one player version of a similar game makes no sense.

Now i understand my opinions on the subject are - subjective- hence the opinions. But i believe most of those observations are very Objective, since i sincerely believe they are flaws within the game. Big ones.

There is a reason these "flaws" are so big. You're expecting the game to be something it's not. This isn't the 1 player campaign of a FPS and it's not an MMORPG. There are no quests. There are no uber weapons. There are no npcs, no sidegoals no 1 player versions and there most likely never will be ANY of these things. You're not even the good guy! In Planetside you are NOT a hero. EVERYBODY in planetside is essiantially the NPC badguy. YOU are the grunt from Halo, the Nazi from Wolfenstein and the pig cop from Duke Nukem.

If you are looking for a 1 player game you can win, go play FFX or 1942. If you are looking for a non-stop frag fest with 100+ fighters, by all means stay.

You're choices are
1. Accept this and have fun.
2. Accept this and quit.
3. Continue bitching about how bad the game is, predict it's eventual downfall and hop to the next MMO when it comes along.

Flammey · 2003-08-31, 10:34 PM

I don't know. When I'm fighting against the enemy, and one of my guys kills the guy I am fighting, I THANK HIM. In all likelyhood, had the enemy had more time, I'd have died. Most times when I go one-on-one against an enemy, and I win, I'm usually low on health and armor. So the odd time, when my side kills the guy I was fighting, it isn't a big deal to me. I'm Still Alive to keep fighting, and he isn't.

Intruder · 2003-08-31, 11:02 PM

The true fun in PS doesnt come from the kills, the exp, the zerg, it comes from working together towards a common goal. Some people may disagree with me, but I belive that they are yet to truly experience what I have,

You take 10 people, or 20 or 30 or however many you can control (Im part of Phoenix Legion big outfit on Johari, and with TeamSpeak can run about 3-5 squads without too much problem)

Make sure they know how to work together, follow orders, stick together, support eachother etc..

once you start working together, who cares about who kills who, or who gets the exp, its more about achiving goals, defeating the odds, and basicly sharing a good time with other people.
If this is not you, go play a Game that has AI to fight against.. why are you plaing a MMOG, when the whole point of them is to fight and fight with human opponents.

Theres no better feeling thanflying in a airgroup of 20 reavers/skeets. Or traveling in an armoured convoy, or hotdropping on a tower and charging in together.

*end rant

Cease · 2003-08-31, 11:06 PM

Remember, this is an FPS. The point of the game is to shoot people and blow things up. There is no money, no quests, no computer controlled monsters. It's you vs. human players on the opposite teams with a little bit of storyline to back it up and something to fight over which doesn't really matter in the long run. The point is just to have fun.

I'll pull what you did and quote from the Official Site:

It doesn't matter if you're an avid RPG gamer or a fanatical FPS player, you'll find something in PlanetSide that's just right for you.

RPG gamers want goals and rewards. That's the core of all RPGs. No one is asking for epic quests or even a "winning" scenario. People just want a little more satisfaction for what they have done. If an Empire puts up one helluva a campaign and sweeps a continent that was heavily defended, there needs to be more weight to that other than bragging rights. But all that hard work can be wiped away in an hour by half a squad. Shit, continent locks haven't worked now for what? 2 Months?

You also get XP for kills you take no part in and if you have a decent squad you'll get way more kills than you would solo.

Unless of course you are a good player and then even a good squad would be hard pressed to give you the same XP from kills as you would solo. And you are also forgetting that its much easier to get 5k XP for a base cap solo than it is if you're in a squad. As a matter of fact if your a decent player its actually pretty easy to get 5k XP pretty consistently.

quote:
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4> No real reward for defense.
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You get XP for every attacker you kill, don't you?

If XP for kills is such a great reward then why do we even get XP for capping a base? Shouldn't the kill XP from the cap be enough? Of course not. Why bother defending a base when its much more "profitable" to go attack one? If I stay back to defend a base while some others go attack one - I get kill XP. The ones on the attack get kill XP and XP from the cap.

There is the resecure XP, but my job is to defend that CC. If I do it well, you never get a hack on it in the first place for me to get resecure XP. But I still fight tooth and nail defending. I fight just as hard as the guy attacking a base -- he just gets the nice Cap bonus.

quote:
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1> No real reward other than bragging rights.
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What do you want? It's an FPS, not an RPG. The same thing happens with every other FPS in existance.

Bingo! You said it brotha! The same thing happens with every other FPS in existance. But those FPS don't charge people $12 a month after they shuck out the $40 initially. Now this is where you say "Well then stop paying and go play one of the other FPSs." And this is where I tell you, that's what people are doing. That's why Planetsides player numbers aren't nearly where they were after launch. So maybe YOU don't think its a problem, but a lot of the gamers who were playing at launch, but aren't playing anymore DID think it was a problem. And I certainly hope the Devs don't do like you and stick their head in the sand on this issue either. Because that issue has in turn caused sort of a domino effect on other issues. Ever browsed the official forums lately and see all the requests for server merges? On top of the "lack of reward", the dwindling playerbase is now causing a "lack of opponents" in many cases.

Now with all that said, I still enjoy playing Planetside, but I certainly respect and understand why many got bored and moved on. Its the nature of all online games, but the turnover in PS is pretty high, and there doesn't seem to be as many new players filling the void the old ones left. But only SOE really knows those numbers.

Nimbus · 2003-08-31, 11:29 PM

I'd like to say that I do understand and agree with you on many points, Cease. The fact is, I just don't like people bashing something without a counterpoint and I've pretty much run out of ammo.

The only thing i have left is
This has happened with damn near every other MMO game out there.
I played EQ, DAoC and Shadowbane at launch and in all of these people were complaining, they claimed there was a high turnover rate, everybody hated the game and it would never last. Of course we all know how untrue this is, at least with EQ and DAoC.

The main point I have is, the game seems to be primarily FPS. Maybe Sony did advertise it saying there would be plenty for RPG gamers and that may be untrue, but I'm very happy with the game. I honestly can't think of any problems I have with it and I haven't been this addicted to a game in years.
The only thing I can really say is, I'm sorry. A lot of the points you guys bring up seem to be major parts of the game and it probably will be years before they get changed, if at all.