Why PlanetSide is whacked

BadAsh · 2004-03-12, 12:18 AM

Ok, well the game is not really completely whacked, but it does have a few critical problems that should never have been... I know I'm going to be flamed for this opinion, but so be it.

The 2 problems I'll address here are:

1. Population Problems... meaning the teams are never even.

2. Game Balance problems... meaning one team is always more powerful for one reason or another (besides the above mentioned population issue) and therefor has an unfair advantage.

These two problems feed off of each other to the point of being silly. With each empire being "unique" and having different equipment with different capabilities there will always be game balance problems. This simply will NEVER go away as long as the above �flavor� is maintained.

When the NC had the best equipment in the game they had the largest population and NC hordes when unchecked for months.

Now the VS have the most powerful equipment and so they now have the largest active population and are running unchecked.

Solution you ask?

Make everything common pool. The empire "flavor" thing is folly. This is a fast action competitive sport like video game. Teams need the same capabilities and equipment to remain even.

What serious sport has such uneven teams? In American Football or Baseball what league allows one team to have more players? What if one team was allowed an unfair advantage like say to be able to run out of bounds and still have the play count while the other team would draw a penalty? The advantaged team would always win and it would quickly become boring.

I've brought this up before and have been flamed because everyone having access to the same equipment would "ruin empire uniqueness" and "make the game too vanilla" or my favorite �It will make my hacking/jacking useless�� HUH?

A good art team, like what SOE has, could make very unique but statistically equivalent equipment for each empire with no trouble. Just look at body armor for an example of what I mean... a TR Rexo = a NC Rexo = a VS Rexo but each has a completely different look and style while remaining identical in game play and functionality.

Now imagine all "empire specific" weapons getting an artistic makeover for each empire so their appearance and sound were as distinctive and unique as the body armors but statistically identical.

Now a minor adjustment to a single weapon, say the Lasher for example, would not fuck the whole game up by making a weapon advantageous to have and causing a mass migration from one team to another.

The community would be less divided because 1/3rd won't be attacked at the "bad guy" for having the "overpowered n00b weapon" and the other 2/3rds won't feel cheated or feel the need to switch teams until the balance is restored.

Thus making everything common pool and making everything FAIR and EVEN would restore team numbers and balance the game in one simple fix.

Now victory can be determined by things such as player skill, tactics, and planned strategy rather than overpowered equipment and vast disparity in populations. Novel idea huh?

Besides how damn cool would it be to make decisions like: Hmmm, should I go with the sniper style AV weapon, the lock-on self-guided AV weapon, or the manual camera guided AV weapon? Hmmm, am I in a shotgun, machine gun, or lashy kind of mood today? Hmmm, for our mission would a lock down MAX, a flying MAX, or a shielded MAX best suit our needs? Hmmm, so we need light vehicles that can cross water or do we need heavy vehicles to try and stave off this Zerg attack? Choices are a good thing� think of the dynamics this would add to the game�

*Bad Ash suits up in an itchy asbestos suit and perches an albatross on his shoulder while bracing for the napalm... �You would not flame a guy with an albatross on his shoulder now would ya? It�s bad luck!*

DucusSumus · 2004-03-12, 12:24 AM

If you took all of the empire-specific weapons and vehicles away you would removing a lot of the fun. The war philosohpies and strategies of each empire make the game more interesting. As long as everything is different, but balanced it is okay. Some weapons will have an edge in certain situations while others will have an edge in other situations.

For example, the Jackhammer is really good at 2 feet away. But at 20 feet away the MCG is better. But, they are both equal. Right now the Lasher is wildly overpowered at all ranges, but this is being fixed.

BadAsh · 2004-03-12, 12:40 AM

Originally Posted by DucusSumus

If you took all of the empire-specific weapons and vehicles away you would removing a lot of the fun. The war philosohpies and strategies of each empire make the game more interesting. As long as everything is different, but balanced it is okay. Some weapons will have an edge in certain situations while others will have an edge in other situations.

For example, the Jackhammer is really good at 2 feet away. But at 20 feet away the MCG is better. But, they are both equal. Right now the Lasher is wildly overpowered at all ranges, but this is being fixed.

I'd agree with that if...

There was ever at any point actual game balance with this philosophy. Sure on paper the theory is sound. It's just when reality rains on the dream parade is when the serious flaw is exposed. Different capabilities are almost impossible to truly balance and as a consequence one team has always enjoyed an advantage and thus reaped the rewards of increased kill counts and hordes of "new" members turning the minor disruption into a landslide.

IMHO there is no excuse of justification for one empire getting 50% or more of the server population during a peak time. WTF fun is that? Is an easy win fun? Is getting owned by the masses fun? The whole game is degraded by this unfulfilled design dream.

Time to admit error, make corrections, and breathe new life into what could be a truly exceptional game.

Jaged · 2004-03-12, 12:26 AM

Flame Flame Flame Flame

UncleDynamite · 2004-03-12, 12:49 AM

*Shoos albatross away first, then proceeds flaming*

Just kidding. Well, allow me to be the first to admit that I'm pretty skeptical about plans to make everything common pool, but I will also admit that your post gives excellent support for that idea. I agree that population balance is an issue that ought to be addressed, but making everything statistically the same doesn't neccessarily mean balance. For example, if all the empires had MCGs, Jackhammers, and Lashers, then it's likely that most everyone will pick up the Lasher over the other two (simply because the Lasher is currently more effective). If the MCG suddenly gets a buff, then there will a flock to that instead.

Granted, a migration from better weapon to better weapon within an empire is better than migration from better empire to better empire, but weapon balance would still be an issue. Maybe it's just me, but I think that if everyone was playing with, say, the Jackhammer because it was the most powerful weapon, the game would get pretty boring as most players were using the same (statistically) weapon. Even if the Lasher has an edge over me, at least it's interesting to have a little variation in damage/range/effects/etc instead of no variation at all.

While this isn't as much as an issue, I still believe that the "all common pool" move would still make the game a little more bland. For example, as a Reaver pilot, fighting NC tanks is fun and straightfoward: as long as I avoid SkyGuards, let the rockets fly at the Vanguards, reload, repeat. But with the VS, I have to adjust my tactics to accomodate the Mag's direct fire weapons that can snipe me out of the sky with far greater ease than the NC's conventional cannon. If all three empires had all three tanks, then that dread and thrill I get when hunting VS tanks will largely dissappear, since I'm sure that the majority of players would choose the Vanguard. Yes, it's a small loss, but it's a loss that'll take a little of fun out of the game as well.

That said, I think you've made a great argument for the idea, but I still have some concerns about the "inner" balance between the weapons themselves.

BadAsh · 2004-03-12, 01:07 AM

Originally Posted by UncleDynamite

*Shoos albatross away first, then proceeds flaming*

What you don't know is that I fed my feathered friend a honey roasted peanut. "Dat boid ain't goin nowhere"

I hear what you are saying though and you have a good point as well. I still think having a simple weapon balance problem is better than a combined weapon balance AND team balance problem. It's that combination that causes the most woe and what can be completely avoided with one simple "correction".

I have another "radical idea" which is somewhat related, but that I'll just stick on another thread so as to not hijack my own thread... lol.

KIAsan · 2004-03-12, 01:27 AM

Ok, this theme has been around before (4th empire discussions). I agree with your premise that population problems cause unplayability issues. However, common pool is not the solution. Meaningful population modifiers are the solution.

If I log on and my population is at 15%, I have two choices. Fight the hopeless fight, or log off in frustration (yeah, change sides, I know, 3rd choice). If however, with this low popluation came some extensive benefits, like increase armor/health/zero respawn time/5X XP/CEP bonus, then I think i would stay. Additionally, if your population is at 50% and your are ruling the other two empires. There should be a definite negative (Doubled respawn times, 5X reduction in CEP and Xp, etc.). If you put this system in place, if becomes painful for the forth empire types to migrate. Who wants to be the uber insta gib killa, if you have to wait twice as long to respawn when you die.

Will this actually solve anything? Don't know until it's tried. But there is a mechanism for it all ready built into the game that doesn't require any major work to implement. Just bump the modifiers, maybe add a few more and lets see if populations level. I know if will be frustrating for those with the majority population, but hey, it's the price you have to pay for the ability to stomp the world at whim.

Firefly · 2004-03-12, 01:39 AM

I don't mind threeway fights, they wouldn't be so bad *IF* the friggin Vanu pop on Emerald wasn't twice the size of both NC and TR COMBINED.

Of course since we're all Boycotting the Vanu!, you can find the VS spoiling for a decent fight when the TR and NC decide to have a good old brawl. I saw a few of them admitting it over on the official forums, that they are hurting for good times.

The Empire-switching is what seriously caused this, not the Lasher. The Lasher is a frontline problem and yes, there are issues with things such as the eleven-day consideration and changing to BUFF it, but thirty days before anyone decided to do anything about the screaming, yelling NC and TR.

Empire-switching. Yes. When the VS get on a role, and all the little powergaming kiddies who slaver and drool for XP or the "I need to win!" syndrome, they all abandon ship and go play VS. The whole notion that you can readily ditch a character and then go play a separate team with only a 12-hour return penalty is a fat load of donkey nuttage.

Planetside Developers need to post a simple message on the forums and in the game. "Pick an empire. Be in that empire. Such-and-such date is the last day we allow this. PS, we're sorry."

GAJ VESTITE · 2004-03-12, 01:35 AM

I have a better reason! Cause it's a game that wasn't ready for release and still isn't

Majik · 2004-03-12, 07:44 AM

I come from the VS, I go to the VS.

Frankly, I want all the Noobhammer Surgiles who came over to the VS to go the hell back. We didn't need you before, we don't want you now. The whole concept of multiple empires on a server sucked from the beginning. Pick and empire and stay with it, or play on another server.

Lartnev · 2004-03-12, 07:51 AM

Planetside Developers need to post a simple message on the forums and in the game. "Pick an empire. Be in that empire. Such-and-such date is the last day we allow this. PS, we're sorry."

I agree with that. On such a date you'll be taken to the main screen, you will log onto a server and then just before you pick a character you are asked to pick an empire. All characters on that server which are not in your chosen empire will a)be converted to your chosen empire (preferred) or b)deleted. Although it will be strange when barneyVS is running around in TR/NC colours

The empires add variety to the game, common pool would ruin that variety. Someone said that in team games like American Football you don't have unbalanced sides (I know it was in relation to team size which can't really be helped in Planetside, it also works for the common pool argument), well they actually kinda do. Now my knowledge of American Football isn't great (I'm from the UK) but the teams are different. Some teams have larger players, others have better stamina, others are good all rounders. Every team has different strengths, weaknesses and playbooks and while you have similar plays, some are closely guarded secrets. In Football (Soccer) teams have different tactics and different players they can bring off the bench etc. If every team was the same, every racing car and driver the same etc then sports could get rather boring for the most part.

In short the 3 empires bring a sense of variety that is required in Planetside. In my opinion of course

Batousai · 2004-03-12, 08:22 AM

IMHO I dont think you can fix this problem. Like any game theres going to be problems that you just cant fix. Im glad the Devs are trying to fix this problem thats been plaguing this beautifully made game since beta. Maybe the devs can fix this problem but when your dealing with empire specific weapons the task get a little tricky.

The United States and Russia has "empire specific weapons", so if we go to war with them and were kicking there ass, I dont think they'll say "Hey your weapons are to overpowered nerf them or we'll tell the U.N.

Firefly · 2004-03-12, 09:07 AM

Originally Posted by Lartnev

I agree with that. On such a date you'll be taken to the main screen, you will log onto a server and then just before you pick a character you are asked to pick an empire. All characters on that server which are not in your chosen empire will a)be converted to your chosen empire (preferred) or b)deleted. Although it will be strange when barneyVS is running around in TR/NC colours

The empires add variety to the game, common pool would ruin that variety. Someone said that in team games like American Football you don't have unbalanced sides (I know it was in relation to team size which can't really be helped in Planetside, it also works for the common pool argument), well they actually kinda do. Now my knowledge of American Football isn't great (I'm from the UK) but the teams are different. Some teams have larger players, others have better stamina, others are good all rounders. Every team has different strengths, weaknesses and playbooks and while you have similar plays, some are closely guarded secrets. In Football (Soccer) teams have different tactics and different players they can bring off the bench etc. If every team was the same, every racing car and driver the same etc then sports could get rather boring for the most part.

In short the 3 empires bring a sense of variety that is required in Planetside. In my opinion of course

Yes and no. The NUMBERS are balanced. The association says "You may have a zillion players provided you can pay them all, but you can only have x-amount on the field at any given time for specific circumstances.

If the populations were locked out, that would (in my opinion) do a lot to secure the futures of players. I, for one, will not invite cross-empire traitors to my outfit. I would rather kill them in their coward's colors than let them fight beside me. I want reliable people, not sell-outs and turncoats who switch back and forth. It's your game and if you wanna switch and play for the other team, be my guest sweetcheeks.

I feel the biggest mistake of the game was cross-empire alts on the same server, and that 12-hour timer is ridiculously inept, which adds insult to injury. Get rid of them both. Set a date. Lock it in stone. People don't like it, but they're few and far between in terms of total population.

Sporkfire visits this forum. I consider this website to be the most accurate depiction of the general PS population, I don't know why. I sincerely hope he checks this out and takes it into consideration, and rest assured I'll bring it up at the AGN night and submit it as a question as well.

BadAsh · 2004-03-12, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by Firefly

I feel the biggest mistake of the game was cross-empire alts on the same server, and that 12-hour timer is ridiculously inept, which adds insult to injury. Get rid of them both. Set a date. Lock it in stone. People don't like it, but they're few and far between in terms of total population.

I disagree with that statement. The ability to play 2 empires on 1 server was necessairy because of the server merger. Just about every player I know has an alt with a different empire. Variety is the key here...

The notion of "locking" teams at character creation in a FPS game is flawed. Find another FPS game where this is the case? UT? Q3A? RTCW? CS? BF1942? You can all change teams on the fly depending what team needs the players... and with numerical team balancing options for server set up and administration at least the player teams are balanced in that regard.

PS dropped the ball on this one... you either zerg or get zerged... rare is the numerically even fight.

Queensidecastle · 2004-03-12, 10:41 AM

I think we all know that the #1 problem at any given time is population. All other problems are secondary to this. Much debate can be given on each reason that a population imbalance might exist but at the end of the day it is population balance that causes frustration.

It has already been pointed out that the main problem with the lasher is that previous to the uberbuff it recieved (that no one was even asking for heh) you would have 2 guys in a tower where now you have 4. Endless debates can ensue on why that is but the fact remains that overwhelming odds in the heavy assault trooper department are what is pissing ppl off.

The Solution:

I dont know why Sony hasnt done this since the beginning of the game but there needs to be REAL AND TANGIBLE benifits to becoming underpopulated. If we have a situation where one faction is 45% another 33% and another like 23%, that 23% needs to get upwards of 100more hps or perhaps double armor, or something that actually makes a Difference We already know and understand that a certain ammount of players only play to be overpowered. They follow whatever is overpowered at a given time. This is understandable to some degree because people play games for fun and like being the "winner" but the majority of players like some challange. Sony already has the mechanism in place to make REAL population control work but the absurdity of a 2% health buff and a 2% xp buff are ridiculous to the point of being inflamitory. Those type of buffs are so insignificant that they make no difference at all and are just a waste of code and processor cycles. Once a 45% population comes up against a 23% population and finds them all like MAX suits will be the day populations can actually equalize.