Meaningful Customization & Balance via Tradeoff Decisions

[Raymac]

Originally Posted by Malorn

For low values of t (time) I'm sure their design and their statements are consistent. It is not true as t increases. So the argument will go away when their design is consistent with their statement.

More importantly I'm concerned with how the game scales. Think release + 1 year and they have a content expansion. Many players have converged and have most of the same skillsets providing the same passive power bonuses. There is no longer differentiation between players. What will they do? Well they already started down the path of power over time so they'll very likely continue down that path and expand and add more power bonuses. Just like EVE started with "not that big of a difference" it becomes a big difference and discourages new players.

The immediate feedback I got from my outfit mates on the skill system was the "never catch up" problem EVE has with new players. It is not a good system. Player specialization and customization decreases over time as everyone obtains the same set of bonuses, and it only widens the gap between new players and veterans. 2-3 years down the line you have new players who would need to invest an enormous amount of real-world time to just get to where the vets are, and by the time they do the game will have new certs and things exposed. It never stops, and the longer it goes on the worse it gets for new players. Now is the time to change that course and pick a system that scales with additional content without upsetting power balance. I propose one based on other games with similar systems (including PS1 and EVE - use their ship customization model instead of their skill gain model).

So, when the devs say that PS2 will still be a skill based shooter and that a brand new player can compete with a long time player, you just think they are either full of shit, or don't know what they are talking about. If your posts weren't so well written, I'd say that point of view is just being a troll.

I'm giving the devs the benefit of doubt that they actually want to achieve their stated goals, and they arn't just blowing sunshine up my ass. Frankly, I think your argument of "I totally know how this is going to play out" is premature. The conclusions you are making are leaps in logic based on the assumption that the devs are either lying or incompetent.

Alot of what you've been saying has been based on your experience with EVE, and I've never played the game, so I concede that my knowledge of its mechanics are extremely limited. However, I'm sure that the combat between EVE and PS2 are completely different, so making an apples to apples comparison of balance is going to be inherantly flawed and therefore not worth as much stock as you seem to be putting into it. Basically, lets see what it will look like for PS2 before we start advocating for throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Then, to extrapolate that out several years and say, "well it might be good for year 1, but by year 5 the game will be forever broken" you have to ignore the fact that the game will be supported (much better than PS1 it seems) and problems can be addressed and fixed. I'm not going to redesign the automobile because I know the radiator will leak someday. I'll fix the radiator if and when it becomes a problem.

Look, you are obviously a very intelligent guy, and make well thought out points. I just think it's early to be concerned about issues 5 years from now that the devs are already aware of.

[Malorn]

Originally Posted by Raymac

So, when the devs say that PS2 will still be a skill based shooter and that a brand new player can compete with a long time player, you just think they are either full of shit, or don't know what they are talking about. If your posts weren't so well written, I'd say that point of view is just being a troll.

That isn't my point of view.

There are several things to consider.

1) The information we have is incomplete. So the picture of what they see in the game design and the picture we see from their information they have provided will not line up in many places. This can lead to false impressions, so yeah I've got a bit of grain of salt. However, that's just a limitation we have to deal with and it shouldn't stop the analysis and giving of feedback.

2) I'm sure they are doing what they believe to be right to make their game successful.

3) Developers are still human. They get things wrong. Sometimes group think, inaccurate information, or a variety of other psychological phenomena is involved. Sometimes they didn't look at things from all the angles. Most common problems occur because things just dont' work out the way you expect them to.

Every game has notable screwups and poor designs. How many might have been averted if they had the right questions asked and the right ideas presented early in development? The PS2 devs seem to understand this quite well, which is why they have the 3-year plan. They're putting forth what they want to do so they have plenty of time to get our feedback on that so they can avoid problems like BFRs or taking the game in the wrong direction.

I hear what they say. I read what they type. I see the design they lay out for us. I don't think they're lying to us. I don't think they're being deceptive. I trust that they are competent individuals. However, I see gaps, inconsistencies, potential problems, and pitfalls in a small portion of what they have presented. Those same developers ASKED US for feedback. Higby reads these forums to see what people think. I'm giving them that feedback because...maybe they overlooked something. Maybe something won't pan out the way they expect it to. Maybe its not quite right. That's why we're here providing feedback, and that's why they're reading these forums.

I work on world-class software for a living - I know full well that sometimes developers get it wrong. And many times had the right question been asked or the right scenario discussed those things could have been averted.

I also know that sometimes its too late in a product cycle to fix a problem so the earlier you find it the better. Sometimes you have to deal with a flaw and once you ship that flaw you have to deal with it for a very long time. I am giving my feedback early and often on this so they have plenty of time to address it and PS2 is the best game it can be.

Look, you are obviously a very intelligent guy, and make well thought out points. I just think it's early to be concerned about issues 5 years from now that the devs are already aware of.

Thank you, and as I stated above, we do have incomplete information. Maybe i'm wrong. But maybe I'm not. Software development is a sensitive thing. There does come a point where something that is core to a game system becomes too etched to change, and if they got that design wrong beta may be too late to change it in the right way and instead we end up with a hack (like the lattice system from PS1). Maybe that hack will work out OK, but maybe it won't. The best option is to provide feedback on what we know, poke, prod, ask questions, challenge the assumptions. If the design is solid they'll have answers. But so far for this particular subject I haven't seen responses that make me feel more confident in their design. More information would help a lot, but from what we know, I'm worried about this problem.

And please don't get me wrong. I absolutely love the direction the game is going and I'm shocked, surprised, and very happy with most of what I've seen. I think they got their heads on straight for most everything. However, if I see something that seems flimsy and not as sound will speak up about it. I want the game to be successful as much as they do. I've been waiting the better part of a decade for planetside-done-right, and I don't want to miss opportunities to help make it the best it can be and be successful for the next 10 years. And that is precisely what I'm doing. I love this game, that's why I'm so passionate about having a lively debate about what we know of the game systems. Its healthy for the game. It keeps us entertained. And it gives the developers another angle on their ideas.