| Forums | Chat | News | Contact Us | Register |
PSU Social
|
 |
PSU: What's an ANT?
| Forums | Chat | News | Contact Us | Register |
PSU Social
|
|
2011-10-17, 02:49 AM
|
[Ignore Me] #166 | ||||
|
Colonel
|
Ezekiel 28: (speaking of Lucifer, later renamed Satan) 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Lucifer was created perfect. This means flawless. God cannot be faulted for the sins of those he creates who are perfect. The choices, as ever, belong to us. Personal responsibility for sin is something that applies to all adults and all of the angelic race or races. Hebrews 4: (speaking of Jesus) 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Jesus was perfect. He was tempted. He did not sin. The fact that he was tempted means he was capable of faltering. However, he did not falter, fail, or sin.
God gave us the Word of God, and it shows how to conduct yourself as an individual and in any group of any size. I'm not trying to get you to believe it. I don't care what you believe. I'm just telling you what I believe, and why. For you to say everything is God's fault because someone raped your dog, or whatever your pet peeve is, is erroneous. Everyone has choices. Most people's choices are under the auspices of Satan, who is the god of this world, and not directed by the Word of God. In order for there to be a race of man, some of those, actually, the vast majority, in this present age, can be expected to be criminals, sinners, and evil. Since God delegates choice, he knew there would be people who choose him, and people who use whatever excuse they want to ignore him, actively fight him, kill his followers, etc. But, just because some people will choose evil doesn't mean God is going to not have a human race. Why deprive me of a life just because someone like you doesn't want God? You will have your reward soon enough, and so will I. God wasn't going to let the fact that some of the angels were going to rebel against him prevent him from having angels. He just prepared eternal fire for them, and, as it turns out, men who followed Satan, a fallen angel, will reside in the same place. Beings that were going to be rebellious and evil wasn't and isn't going to prevent God from having a family that he has created any more than knowing people are going to use the internet for child pornography (that's considered evil, by the way) prevents man from building and expanding the internet. |
||||
|
|
|
2011-10-17, 03:40 AM
|
[Ignore Me] #168 | |||
|
Colonel
|
Nowhere in God's Word does it say that God created anything for the purpose of chaos. I'm not telling you what to believe. I'm stating that you can't find what you stated, on either point, in God's Word. |
|||
|
|
|
|
2011-10-17, 03:50 AM
|
[Ignore Me] #169 | ||||
|
Colonel
|
And, no baby girls being killed, aborted or left to die:
I said in China, slavery, for the most part does not exist, so baby girls are killed instead of being sold as slaves. The point is, where slavery exists as, sometimes, the only alternative to death, people generally choose slavery. |
||||
|
|
|
|
2011-10-17, 05:24 AM
|
[Ignore Me] #170 | |||
|
Sergeant
|
|
|||
|
|
|
|
2011-10-17, 05:32 AM
|
[Ignore Me] #171 | ||
|
Colonel
|
Yes, I felt the same way. I state something, such as "Dogs are canines". Then someone "refutes" it with "OMG you are an idiot! Penguins are not mammals! LOLOLOL"
Plus, emotional blather, ridicule, the usual stuff people do when they don't really state anything relevant. Last edited by Traak; 2011-10-17 at 05:57 AM. |
||
|
|
|
|
2011-10-17, 08:27 AM
|
[Ignore Me] #173 | |||||
|
Sergeant
|
Im willing to give this one more go i guess, nothing better to do.
For example, i said if God is omnipotent, there need not be any natural disasters. If God is benevolent, he doesnt want there to be any natural disasters because as we discussed, natural disasters are excess misery that isnt needed. So it follows logically that God cant be both omnipotent and benevolent. Again, i am NOT blaming God for them, i am saying if he is real, he cannot be both of these things. Another interesting line of thought is that God puts the love/adoration/worship of himself above things like human well being, (since if we dont do these things he sends us to an eternity of conscious torment in fire (suposedly)) but he is all-loving towards us. Does that make him something stronger than "all-vain" or "all-narcissistic", either way, he has a serious ego. There was also the issue of Christians picking and choosing what they believe from the Bible, i cant be arsed making the whole argument again so im just going to paste it.
|
|||||
|
|
|
|
2011-10-17, 08:58 AM
|
[Ignore Me] #174 | |||
|
Sergeant Major
|
This would mean that, before the Universe was created, God knew exactly what would happen at every moment in the coming Universe, and could tweak any moment to exist precisely as he desired it to. Therefore, this must be the "best" Universe that could possibly be created, with respect to whatever it is that motivates God and defines what He would consider to be "best". Interesting thing here is that morality, sin, temptation, ignorance of God (see Mayans, etc.) and rejection of God exist in this Universe. In fact, since every religion is a minority (with Christianity being the largest) it is a provable certainty that MOST humans believe in the wrong religion, regardless of what religion may be correct. So, if the Christian God exists, His ideal Universe is one where most people reject Him and suffer eternal damnation. And that's to say nothing of the traditional "Why does evil exist?" argument. I find this situation to be quite interesting, as people historically have almost always followed the religion of their parents/region. The Koran in particular makes a very specific and logical argument as to why Christianity is wrong based on the First Commandment. This largely locks a young Muslim into his or her faith, even if that person is introduced to Christianity later in life. Thought of in this way, it's very hard to believe in the Christian God of Majority Damnation or any of the other less popular Gods. |
|||
|
|
|
|
2011-10-17, 09:25 AM
|
[Ignore Me] #175 | |||
|
Colonel
|
Romans 2 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another  If someone really wants truth, and wants to live right, but has never heard of Christ, what does he do? This doesn't apply to most people in the Western world, but what about some dude off in the jungles of Borneo? God can't hold someone responsible for a choice, if they never made a choice. So, a choice must be available. If someone did the best he could, having never heard of Christ, then "their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another". You can't be held accountable for something you have never heard, logically. You can't be given an F on a test you have never written. We are held accountable according to what we had. Luke 12 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. If I have a Bible, am a Christian, and know a lot about what it says, I am held accountable for all of that. But a guy who has never seen a Bible? He will be held accountable for what little he did know that was right or wrong. Will God hold him accountable to not drink blood, but, instead to drain the animal before he eats it? No. "not drinking blood" is one of the few dietary things (the other one being "don't eat something that you know has been sacrificed to an idol) that Christians are required to do. How could some guy in some jungle know that? God is omnipotent, omniscient, and he is love. Everyone has a choice, and they are held accountable for whatever level of information they had that led to their choice. God can get the gospel to anyone, anywhere, however, if they want as much of God as they can get. Acts 8 26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert. 27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship, 28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet. 29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. 30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? 31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. 32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: 33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. 34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. 39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. 40But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea. God, by an angel, directed Philip to go out on the road, where God knew a guy was wondering about something in the Old Testament, and Philip preached Jesus to him, he got saved, got baptized in water, then Philip was miraculously transported from Gaza to Azotus, about 38 miles. He vanished from where he was with the Ethiopian, and was found at Azotus. If God can move someone 38 miles, he can move them 10,000 miles. Nothing is impossible. If someone really wants to know truth, God will get it to him, enough for him to make the next step. He did it by sending Philip to this Ethiopian, he can do it today. He didn't suddenly run out of miracle sauce the moment the Bible was written. Everyone has choices between good and evil to make. And we are held accountable for whatever level of knowledge we have regarding good and evil, and by our conscience. Only God knows who is accountable for what, but all adults are accountable. All children are not. The age at which someone becomes a moral adult will vary from person to person. Some people might be so completely physically vegetative or brain-damaged they never even get to the point of reaching that stage before they die. Only God knows, but he judges rightly, every time. |
|||
|
|
|
|
2011-10-17, 09:56 AM
|
[Ignore Me] #176 | ||
|
Sergeant Major
|
Traak: I think you totally missed my point where the Christian God, if He exists, has created a Universe where most people go to Hell. And as I said, whether or not you go to Hell is determined largely by your place of birth. There's a built-in excuse for people who've never heard of Jesus, but people raised in a Muslim home will almost always keep that faith. Since God would know ahead of time that Ahbed would uphold his parents Muslim faith in the face of Christianity, God effectively planned for Ahbed to go to Hell before he was even born. The fact is that the vast majority of people who are born are going to Hell, according to the Bible. If that's the case, I doubt this is the "best" Universe, by which I deduce that the Christian God does not exist.
And isn't it a bit silly that, in this by-definition perfect Universe, so many people weren't given the privilege of the knowledge of the actual Creator? If God exists, isn't it cruel that He allowed so many millions to live their entire lives without the possibility of knowing that He exists? I mean, for the good, devout spirit-worshipers of America between the years 1500A.D.->????B.C. that'd be a big shock when they die: "Oh hey, turns out everything you ever believed was wrong. This big guy actually created the Universe and didn't get around to telling your continent about it (sorry)." And that brings up another interesting possibility. Maintaining for the moment the assumption that Christianity is correct... Since millions of people never got to hear about Jesus (or monotheism) in their entire lives, it's proven that, if there is a God, He doesn't necessarily need to let an individual (or group of people) know about him on any specific time frame. And since Americans lived for thousands of years with their own Creation myths which were largely supplanted by Christianity... isn't it possible that Christianity is just another Creation myth, waiting to be supplanted by a visitor from elsewhere who claims to know the true God? What makes you think you know the truth any more than an Iroquois shaman did in the year 1300? |
||
|
|
|
|
2011-10-17, 10:04 AM
|
[Ignore Me] #177 | |||
|
PSU Staff
Wiki Ninja |
So god's rules have a time limit. I see. So how does one determine what the time limit is? Since you have repeatedly quoted from the old testiment, obviously you still accept some of those rules. And as others have pointed out, Jesus supposedly said that all the old rules were unchanged, so don't give me that excuse. If god was really as moral and great as he is supposed to be, he should never have said slavery was ok. So again, you and pretty much every religious person cherry-picks the stuff they like from their holy book and ignores the rest. A far better explanation is that the bible was written by bronze-age males (as obvious in treatment of females in the bible) with bronze-age laws. Because if it really were written (or inspired) by god, it's pretty clear god lacks morals. It would be far more impressive if god had laid out modern laws that we have today (no slavery, women's rights, etc), but then the religion would have never grown because nobody would want to live like that in the bronze age. They wrote what they had to so that their cult would grow, simple as that. There is no evidence for any divine inspiration. Quite the contrary. Last edited by Quovatis; 2011-10-17 at 10:10 AM. |
|||
|
|
|
|
2011-10-17, 10:23 AM
|
[Ignore Me] #178 | ||||||||
|
Colonel
|
You say God is omnipotent, so therefore you shouldn't ever have any negative consequences, everything should be wonderful, he should be there to do everything for everyone to prevent them from ever having any negative consequence, or ever doing something wrong. But, that isn't free will. That is the point you keep ignoring. You make choices. God gave you that power. He will not rescind it. Do you understand that? God is not lacking in love because he allowed you to leave the house with a tie that clashes with your shoes. He is not lacking in love or power because he allows people to make choices. Do you understand? Free will is the greatest gift he could give. The consequences of decisions being ours and ours alone is something even the angels had, how much more man, created in his image. Even dogs have free will. If a dog bites a cat, you use that as evidence that God either doesn't care or can't prevent it? How about if a flea bites a dog? How about if an amoeba devours a paramecium? At what level do you quit saying "See! That is proof God is not omnipotent, or uncaring"? But, the fundamental problem that you are overlooking is that the state of this planet is due to the choices made by the men on it. You buying Nike shoes, did you do that so other people could work in sweatshops? Yet you buy stuff made in oppressive countries. Is it your choice to oppress workers and make them work in bad conditions? No. You just buy shoes. Somewhere along the line, however, someone is responsible for the conditions workers work in, and it is not God, it is other men. God offered prevention of any evil ever happening on this planet: Genesis 2 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Adam had the Tree of Life. He could have eaten of that. But noooooo, he had to eat of the one tree that God said he couldn't eat. If he would have eaten from the tree of Life, he would have had no desire for the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and he would have lived forever. After he sinned, it was too late to make that choice, and an everlasting sinful man was not something this world needed. We don't need someone living forever who is worse than Hitler, Stalin, Dalmer, and whoever else you care to name, all rolled into one. Genesis 3 22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever... 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. How much more obvious could God make it? You can eat from any tree here except this one. Instead of the tree of life, Adam chose to rebel against God and disobey. And this world, since then, is a result of that. God giving people a choice doesn't make God evil. Even when he knows that you will make bad choices, he still lets you make them. By giving man free will, he made available good and bad choices. Bad choices by a large enough group of people can lead to natural or man-made annihilation, because evil attracts disaster, sin produces death. When Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed, it was due to the choices of the adults inhabiting those cities. They drew down evil on themselves, and the children, who they were responsible to protect, were destroyed along with them. However, the children went to heaven, and many of the adults went to hell, but everyone died. So, what are labeled "acts of God" or natural disasters, are not a result of God not caring or not being able to prevent them. You are responsible to hear from God, why were you there? Why didn't you flee? Many people on 9/11 somehow were late, didn't make it to work, were warned by God to not go to work that day. God is speaking all the time. Not everyone is listening.
[quote=MadPenguin;600091]If you are trying to say God cant be blamed for the free will of man then I have said before and i will say again i agree.
In his benevolence, the omniscient, omnipotent God gave the answer in advance, put Adam in the garden with the tree that would give everlasting life, and Adam rejected that.
Do you have an ego problem if you want your wife to only sleep with you, and not every single person in the entire city, starting with intravenous drug users? Is it because your ego is so titanic, so colossal, that you don't want that for her? Could it be that there are benefits that accrue from her not banging every guy in sight? Benefits that you willingly provide? If you work in a prison, in the section reserved for child molesters, are you being an egomaniac if you don't want to bring your son there, and let him wander around the cell block? Are you being a mean-spirited authoritarian dictator because you know he is in danger, and he doesn't? If you have a young daughter, are you being an egomaniacal pervert if you tell her not to go around hugging any and all strangers, everywhere? Because you DARE to think it is better for her to hug you than random guys who might be hanging around her playground? Is it because your ego is so insatiable that you instruct your little girl not to do that? Are you depriving her of fun when you tell her not to get into cars with strangers? No, you are somewhere that she is supposed to get love, attention, and affection. It is good for her to be loved and hugged by her dad. It can be fatal to go to others for that. If you have a young boy, and you give him something nice, such as, oh, let's say, eternal life in heaven, and he turns around and curses you, and murders your other son, would you consider that to be appropriate? Something you should shower with rewards? How do you reward evil? With punishment. But, the punishment is self-chosen. God makes it available, but doesn't force you to sin. He also doesn't force you to do good. God tells us stuff for our own good. Satan is in this world, and he is trying to impoverish, infect, and kill you. God's ways work. That's why he touts them. However, where do you go, if you refuse all love, all light, all blessing, and all good? Hell. Then, after the judgment, the lake of fire. Because to reject God is to reject all that is good, light, fun, happy, and beautiful. So where can God put you? In heaven, where you would be BURDENED with the horror of being surrounded by people like me who love God? In heaven? Where you would have the unspeakable degradation of being in the presence of the God who loves you? Since God's presence fills heaven, and you don't want God, and God gives you free will, he can't force you to be in heaven. He can't violate your will. You can reject him, but since everything about him is good and loving, if you reject him, you reject all in life that is good and loving, and having done that, you have to go, due to your own choice, to a place that is absent of all love, all goodness, all peace, all safety, and all that is good in any way whatsoever. Anything God tells us is for our good, not his. You don't tell your kids to not drink poison for your good. You don't keep them from playing with venomous snakes to deprive them of fun. God knows what works. His way works, so he tells us to do things his way, but he allows us to reject what is good. And, to whoever was asking about multiple posts, it is FAR faster to respond to each person with a quote response, than it is to go through all the work it takes to cram responses to multiple people into one post. An all-powerful loving God gave free choice. Since this life is temporary, and eternity comes after, the relative femtoseconds we spend in this world that is so poisoned by sinners can't compare to the glories awaiting us for eternity. We wade through this sin-blackened world for a while, but it will be over soon enough, and sinners will be as far away from God and all his effects as they can get, and we will be close, every man according to his choices. As a non-Christian, this world is of ultimate importance, since your entire life is measured in decades, in your view. To the Christian, the miseries we tolerate in this life are nothing compared to the glories of the next life. One day, sinners will no longer be, and will largely or entirely be forgotten. Their kind will be extinct for eternity, the very universe they have darkened with evil will be destroyed in fire, and a new heavens and Earth will take their place. And eternity is really what life is all about, not the temporary pleasures available here, especially the pleasures that have sin as their entrance fee. So, there is a difference of perspective. To the Christian, the only evil that is permanent is the evil that you permanently choose. Evil inflicted by others just does not last. A baby who is aborted goes to heaven. The 8.99999 months it was alive in the Earth, ending in a violent murder, are not the focus, especially as the millenia in heaven go by. Yeah, it's bad, it was murder, it was painful, but it is over. And eternity never ends. Similarly, for the worshiper of abortion, they make their money, or get to go keep being a hooker without the income stream being interrupted by a child, or whatever, and they reject God, and then they get to spend eternity with their god, who is Satan, if they do not repent. This life is exceedingly temporary, and whatever happens or is done to you is also temporary. No one can force you to reject God. Neither can anyone force you to accept him. The choice is yours, and God is not to blame because you have that choice, and the results, either individual or as a society, that accrue therefrom. Last edited by Traak; 2011-10-17 at 10:35 AM. |
||||||||
|
|
|
|
2011-10-17, 10:49 AM
|
[Ignore Me] #179 | |||
|
Contributor Major General
|
THE PRACTICE OF KILLING BABIES IN CHINA IS DYING OUT. There. Can you fucking understand THAT? Now go back and read what I said and try to keep that all-caps sentence in mind.
__________________
|
|||
|
|
|
|
|
| Bookmarks |
|
|
Don't feed the trolls, unless it's funny to do so...
Linear Mode
