The Primary Objective of Planetside 2 versus Shotgun Usage

[Figment]

If everyone uses shotguns at close range, wouldn't that also result in a K/D of approximately 1.0? I wouldn't go off of K/D here. Especially if you consider frequency of spawning where you do this. My K/D is horrid because I'm more effective with a low K/D...

[BlaxicanX]

Originally Posted by monkjunk

Blaxican, unless you have another character I can't see or your stats are extremely out of date, you are pretty new to the game, or at least low ranking. Judging by the fact that one of your Chars was created in December '12, I doubt you're that new.

Although I've met some people who are higher levels who share your views on LA/Infiltrator, most of the time they spend their whole time XP whoring and hate it when an Infil snipes them or a LA gets the jump on them. Although I believe Infil + SMG is easymode, The infiltrator is a pretty difficult class to use PROPERLY, and I don't mean sitting on a bridge sniping, I mean actively infiltrating, hacking and sabotaging an enemy base and/or taking up strategic postions to deny them certain opposing high points/other assorted places.

Same goes for the LA. Most people will only use a jet pack to get over an obstacle, but a skilled LA veteran knows countless ways to use it to gain an advantage of the enemy faction. Taking Shotguns from LA would almost nullify the class.

Infil and LA are not shit tier classes, just too many people use them for the wrong things, not for their designed intentions.

I'm not really sure what my time played has to do with anything, but okay.

The tier listing of anything in a game is defined by how good or useful it is compared to everything else. If Light Assault and Infiltrator are only useful when used by high-level, highly skilled players, than they are in fact shit-tier, because they're being compared to the Engineer, Heavy Assault and the Medic, three classes whose perks and contributions to the game are entirely ubiquitous and blatantly important to winning any battle regardless of the skill of the people playing them.

A fresh-faced new player with 3 hours of gameplay under his belt will contribute more to a battle as a heavy assault class than a hardened veteran light assault player will. That's a sign that the light assault is ass compared to the heavy assault.

[Neutral Calypso]

Simple solution: Change pump actions so that they are a OHK unless you have nanoweave. Nanoweave users can then lol and shoot up the pump action users while they fumble with their pump.

[zulu]

Originally Posted by Figment

If everyone uses shotguns at close range, wouldn't that also result in a K/D of approximately 1.0? I wouldn't go off of K/D here. Especially if you consider frequency of spawning where you do this. My K/D is horrid because I'm more effective with a low K/D...

Perhaps. But we don't see anything close to "everyone" using a shotgun. Consider that almost 30000 characters qualify for using the chainblade in that spreadsheet's stats (in other words: BR10 or more, and using a weapon for 60+ minutes. The magblade is counted as being "used" basically all of the time you're spawned, so it's a good check on how many characters qualify for these stats). A little under 2200 characters qualify for using the Uppercut -- that's about 7% of TR characters. That's a lot, when you think about it -- 1/13th of characters using a single weapon, but the Hailstorm (the SMG, not the VS nosegun) has about 4300 users (14%).

It's a popular weapon, but it's nowhere close to being the most popular weapon for the TR, and given that the Uppercut is also the most-used shotgun, I'm willing to bet that the ratios aren't any bigger for the other factions.

I think that, in addition to being a tactical concession in terms of range ("I'm going to do really great within about six meters, but I'll give up basically everything else"), the pumps are also a concession in terms of versatility ("If I get the drop on a group of people, I will be able to take out a lot of them, but because of the time in-between shots, I'll be murdered if I don't get the drop on them").

In that sense they're very similar to the SMGs (which don't do nearly as well as the pumps in the score or K/D use statistics, but their users outnumber the pump-shotgun users, oddly enough), which trade range for being very good up close. Actually, the best comparison is likely the Hailstorm, which has lower DPS than the Armistice (the only 2nd Gen SMG to be outclassed by its predecessor in that regard) just as the pumps have significantly lower DPS than the semi-autos. I think they both play into this idea that Levelcap talked about -- the pump shotguns reward getting the drop on enemies rather than "soloing" in the sense of just wading into a room and murdering everyone as you laugh at their dinky little TRAC-5 bullets. Are the SMGs overpowered? Eh, I don't think so. The stats certainly don't suggest that.

But I think the shotguns appear "OP" for the same reason that SMGs (or a Lynx or a Serpent or a whatever) might appear OP: When you get killed by someone, you just see the end result. You don't usually see guy sneaking around the back to outflank you and your buddies and then kill you -- you just see the killscreen.

Anyways, I'm digressing a bit here. The point is that I really doubt that a good claim can be made for the pump shotguns being "OP." The semi-autos, yeah probably they're overpowered. But if the pumps were OP, we'd see it come out in the stats. We'd see a K/D that was better than this (and closer to the CQC carbines against which they're theoretically balanced).

If a bunch of people are unable to use a gun effectively, but somehow a small number of people are using it super-effectively and kicking so much ass that they're dragging the average up to 1.0 K/D (I don't think this is really happening -- I think that the pumps likely have the same sort of distribution of users as all of the other guns in the game), then I don't think you have an "OP" gun there. You have a gun that rewards "skill" (whatever "skill" means in this game -- doesn't have to be "aiming correctly with an automatic weapon" because positioning and movement are also unquestionably skills, too), but I don't really think that's what most of the critics want to contend.

But let's say that you do accept all of that (weirdo distribution of pump users; the "it's a skill argument" resulting from that assumption). I guess you can still say to that, "Well we need a way to counter those skilled players," but what's the line on that? At what point do you say, "Okay, enough is enough, there should be this ceiling that prevents you from killing us with impunity" (if, in fact, this is really happening in any real number, and I doubt that very much)? At what point do you draw the line between "acceptable rewards for skilled CQC play" and "unacceptable loss of fun for everyone else?" Hard to say.

And it would be a line drawn based entirely on supposition and conjecture at this point. Presumably SOE has more detailed statistics on weapon use than we do.

So, yeah, I just don't buy it. I think that being one-shotted just makes people feel frustrated (fairly, perhaps), and so it magnifies the "problem" of these guns and makes it seem like a larger issue than it really is. Granted, I use the Uppercut and think it's a really fun weapon to play with (even if I also believe that the Haymaker is "better"), but even before I bought it I just didn't really think of the weapon as a problem. It didn't seem to me nearly as prolific as people make it out to be.

[KesTro]

Originally Posted by bpostal

The game is a bit too fast as it is. Shotguns drop it even further in close range fights (to include slug ammo)
Also, the objective isn't 'certs' its' never certs, it's never been certs and never will be certs.
Certifications are ancillary. They mean exactly fuck all.

Certs are the only objective in PS2 right now. Doesn't matter what you take or what you lose because you'll just take it back within an hour.

[Snydenthur]

Originally Posted by Figment

If everyone uses shotguns at close range, wouldn't that also result in a K/D of approximately 1.0? I wouldn't go off of K/D here. Especially if you consider frequency of spawning where you do this. My K/D is horrid because I'm more effective with a low K/D...

Now you are saying that shotguns don't require any skill. Shotguns aren't those over exaggerated "you just point in the general direction and everyone dies" weapons. In fact, they require more precise aiming than full auto weapons at close range. You have to hit at the center mass of the enemy if you want to be efficient with it.

And kd-ratio is a good indication of weapon balance. If pump action had much better kd-ratio overall, then there might be a problem.

[Figment]

A lot of people probably can't afford shotguns or smgs or other stuff because they spend their certs differently. I would even argue the majority of people hasn't even begun to look at weapons, because they are busier pimping all their suits and tanks with medium level tools and upgrades. A gun in this game can be quite a few hours of grind, more so without premium.

I would expect the underbarrel grenade launchers to continue to rise in popularity for instance, but that takes time.

Another thing I wonder about is whether shotgun users, using them in CQC, die a lot too because they are going to be in easy HE terrain under the current layout. But all that is unimportant. Why? Because K/D balance only matters between weapons of the same class. And even if you compare cross-class, they may be well balanced compared to one another, but if everything is considered OP (which I for one do), then comparing OP with OP to learn which is more OP is rather moot. Say the shotguns aren't OP, because they are balanced with the rest, if it still feels OP, wouldn't that make other stuff feel OP as well?




What is really interesting is the feel of player-player interaction.

I would not say the line is drawn arbitrarily. People who want a competitive ttk, expect to be able to perform a certain amount of actions. If you take a percentage of people with a certain action performance time, say the middle 90% of players (so P5 to P95) and average that, then you can estimate how long a ttk should feel to feel competitive.

Personally I would expect time to attempt an evasive move after first impact, or time to turn around and return fire. That is bassically the difference between one shooting and three-five shooting someone. See that ps1 vid I posted. The ttk isn't long, but there is an actual exchange of fire most the time.

[OctavianAXFive]

I am of the opinion that the TTK in PS2 is just fine. It's closer to BFBC2 in terms of TTK than it is to CoD or BF3. The OHK shotguns are a bit jarring because I believe the game has a relatively slow TTK compared to what players are used to. Players are used to having to land about 6-7 shots at around 143 damage per shot (the CQC top end for a lot of weapons). The shotgun takes one, sometimes two shots to kill at most automatic weapon's maximum damage ranges.

I'm quite fine with this. I don't think there are any FPS games out there where you won't get gibbed when a shotty barrel stuffs you. It's already been said that shotguns are frustrating more than OP because of your inability to react to them in many situations.

It's the same reason many people dislike landmines or C4. It takes away agency. You don't feel like you can do anything about it. There's nothing too wrong with that, it's a design choice more than anything.

I am tired of shotguns in CQC however. I have good headphones, I can hear the shotguns and I can hear the footsteps. I tweak the game settings to get max FPS, but that is where my main problem lies.

The jarring frame rate, combined with the screen shake from explosions and the chaos, mean that I have a terrible time trying to keep my target, though most of it is frame rate related. Because the shotgun does not require the same kind of precision, it suffers less in low frame high chaos situations. Additionally I feel that when you have a tactical shooter with ADS, you should severely inhibit the effectiveness of hipfire.

This is not the case with the shotgun. It is designed to be a CQC hipfire weapon in a game designed around ADS. I think that needs to change.

The shotgun OHK does not need to go away. Nerfing hipfire accuracy, whether through spread or reducing pellet count or however they decide to do it, is the first step. If the player ADS's I think the range at which a shotgun can OHK or do a lot of damage should be very competitive. The time it takes for target acquisition and reacquisition are the keys here. Firing from the hip gives you a movement advantage over trying to ADS, and is too effective.

The range at which hip firing is effective on many full auto weapons is less than the effective hip fire spam range of the shotguns. This means that you have to ADS with the automatic weapon in order to gain enough accuracy to hit your target which slows you down and makes you easier prey.

There is a fine line. On the one hand, this sort of gameplay is okay so long as the shotgun is not OHK or 2HKilling a target from the hip. A shotgun hip firing and getting hit markers in a spam fight is fine. Some of the auto shotguns meet this expectation. But right now with the frame rates most people get, it's a lot to expect a player to ADS and outshoot a shotgun that doesn't have to ADS to bring you down.

The shotgun might be a little ahead of its time in PS2. Right now the numbers on the weapon data sheet indicate a weapon class that is very limited.

In practice however, the level design, performance, and skill required of many of the automatic weapons mean the shotgun is a dominant weapon in a way it should not be.

In some ways, the slow TTK actually helps the shotgun a lot. It means that a lot of other weapons require a lot more effort to kill people up close than a one-and-done weapon.

I think the shotguns should feel the wrath of hip fire spread more severely than they do. ADS with a shotgun shouldn't change much, if it all.

I think this is an instance where little tweaking needs to be done to the weapon class itself and more to the game around it.

Only very high RPM weapons can get into a good hipfire shootout with shotguns. Thankfully I have access to the Cycler TRVictory

Also, I'll refer people to an episode of extra credits which will serve as an alternative explanation to the power of shotguns.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/epi...cing-for-skill

[Figment]

Originally Posted by Snydenthur

Now you are saying that shotguns don't require any skill. Shotguns aren't those over exaggerated "you just point in the general direction and everyone dies" weapons. In fact, they require more precise aiming than full auto weapons at close range. You have to hit at the center mass of the enemy if you want to be efficient with it.

And kd-ratio is a good indication of weapon balance. If pump action had much better kd-ratio overall, then there might be a problem.

I don't think you realise what I was saying. I didn't imply anything about skill, I implied the context differs and might simply be more lethal.

[bpostal]

Originally Posted by KesTro

Certs are the only objective in PS2 right now. Doesn't matter what you take or what you lose because you'll just take it back within an hour.

Certs are a bullshit objective. They're an afterthought. There is no longevity, no 10 year plan if your entire goal is to cert all the things.
The only thing that (currently) makes the game worth playing is the experience that comes from playing with your friends.

[Snydenthur]

Originally Posted by OctavianAXFive

This is not the case with the shotgun. It is designed to be a CQC hipfire weapon in a game designed around ADS. I think that needs to change.

I don't think shotguns need any changes, but this is the first one I have seen that would actually keep the shotguns from getting useless. IF they nerf it more, this is the way it should be done. Nerf the hip fire accuracy. It would still be a beast at very close range from the hip, but more than 2m away you need to ads to have a chance to ohk.

[Infernalis]

Originally Posted by ChipMHazard

OHK shotguns + forcing players into close quarters combat in order to secure a point/objective (In most cases) = A lot of frustrated players.

I think that the reason many people dislike OHK weapons is that it feels cheap and "robs" people of their ability to react, even if many other weapons simply gives the player an illusion of being able to react.
Then there's also how the game is designed. You can escape OHK sniper rifles, for the most part, and still be effective i.e. playing the objective. You can't escape shotguns in the same way, in most cases.

Shotguns are great situational weapons when the level design makes sure that they are going to be situational. Not so much in Planetside 2.

Pretty much this. Almost every bases is CQB and for the ones a little more open there's plenty of covers to reach the capture while avoiding angle of fire from medium/long range weapons.

On top of that the shotguns are very close to BF3 in term of TTK while the others weapons are not...

[KesTro]

Originally Posted by bpostal

Certs are a bullshit objective. They're an afterthought. There is no longevity, no 10 year plan if your entire goal is to cert all the things.
The only thing that (currently) makes the game worth playing is the experience that comes from playing with your friends.

This is the grind for end-game, (meta) in PS2. IE, all that matters is certs.

[Figment]

Overlooked this post till Blaxican quoted it, have to react to some bits.

Originally Posted by monkjunk

Taking Shotguns from LA would almost nullify the class.

As a shotgunless LA (50% of my time in game), I call utter bogus on this, btw.

Infil and LA are not shit tier classes, just too many people use them for the wrong things, not for their designed intentions.

Sniping (Infil) and infiltration (LA), right? Because the name tags aren't appropriate. The reason "people don't use them for their designed intentions", is because well... they're not actually designed for the "designed intentions" you envision. Infil less so than the LA.

Additionally, Light Assaults were basically designed to be married to shotguns. I doubt SOE would break up a match made in heaven. Every game needs a powerful thing to be scared of, and this game has a few. LA/Shotties fit fine as they are. Any change would disrupt the whole game.

Name me one thing that isn't powerful.

Sorry monk, but you're just coming off as extremely powerhungry and somewhat unimaginative if you think you absolutely, desperately need a shotgun and that its removal would invalidate the class.

I mean that's just utter tripe. It's the most logistically unchallenged unit in game and people that don't see any use for it because it wouldn't have a specific extra tool at its disposal are too busy drooling over that tool to see the bigger picture.



That said, I don't really get why LA doesn't have freeform inventory. Same question I have with HA, Engi and Medic though, so that's not really weird. Would have been a much fairer and better sniper class than the infil. Tbh.

[psijaka]

Originally Posted by BlaxicanX

-snip-

A fresh-faced new player with 3 hours of gameplay under his belt will contribute more to a battle as a heavy assault class than a hardened veteran light assault player will. That's a sign that the light assault is ass compared to the heavy assault.

That's just not true. The effectiveness of either class is highly situational.

Enemy tank approaching - HA
Sunderer parked behind building - LA
Enemies rushing a choke point - HA
Camper on the rooftop - LA
Frontal assault on objective - HA
Flanking assault from an unexpected direction - LA
etc etc.

Edit - and this is true with or without shotguns.