Israel

[Warborn]

Operation Cast Lead alone resulted in over 300 children and almost 100 women being killed by Israeli airstrikes and artillery. It may be that IDF commanders do not begin an operation like this specifically deciding they want to kill children or civilians in general, but it's quite obvious that they do not care if they do. After Cast Lead, Israel was roundly condemned by the UN and international community (except the US, Canada, Australia, and a couple other shitholes) and accused of war crimes by the UN.

[Necronile]

Originally Posted by Warborn

Operation Cast Lead alone resulted in over 300 children and almost 100 women being killed by Israeli airstrikes and artillery. It may be that IDF commanders do not begin an operation like this specifically deciding they want to kill children or civilians in general, but it's quite obvious that they do not care if they do. After Cast Lead, Israel was roundly condemned by the UN and international community (except the US, Canada, Australia, and a couple other shitholes) and accused of war crimes by the UN.

Lets also accuse US of war crimes aswell after the shit they did in Iraq...
and believe me that the IDF commanders do care...
last thing they would want is to sit in jail for careless decisions.

[ItsTheSheppy]

Originally Posted by Necronile

Lets also accuse US of war crimes aswell after the shit they did in Iraq...
and believe me that the IDF commanders do care...
last thing they would want is to sit in jail for careless decisions.

This is a thread about Israel. While I would certainly not argue with you that crimes against humanity were committed by the US (and its allies, and enemies... it's impossible to conduct a war and not commit atrocities), this is a conversation about Israel and pointing at someone else and saying "But he does it too!" does not absolve someone of their action.

I think the point here is that Israel is particularly egregious because it has in this case in specific and in other cases in general launched attacks on civilian populations under the guise of striking military or insurgent targets.

[Necronile]

Originally Posted by ItsTheSheppy

This is a thread about Israel. While I would certainly not argue with you that crimes against humanity were committed by the US (and its allies, and enemies... it's impossible to conduct a war and not commit atrocities), this is a conversation about Israel and pointing at someone else and saying "But he does it too!" does not absolve someone of their action.

I think the point here is that Israel is particularly egregious because it has in this case in specific and in other cases in general launched attacks on civilian populations under the guise of striking military or insurgent targets.

Nope...there is nothing for Israel to gain by killing civillians.
Civilian casualties are part of war,sad but true...
and again the only reason civillians are getting killed is beacuse terror organizations like hamas use them as human shields.

[ItsTheSheppy]

Originally Posted by Necronile

Nope...there is nothing for Israel to gain by killing civillians.
Civilian casualties are part of war,sad but true...
and again the only reason civillians are getting killed is beacuse terror organizations like hamas use them as human shields.

Does it not strike you as being much more likely that Hamas lives and operates among the Palestinian citizenry because many of them are, in fact, Palestinian citizenry? I find it very unlikely that Palestinian members of Hamas are using their friends and neighbors as 'human shields', and are rather hiding in plain sight among their own people.

[Warborn]

Originally Posted by Necronile

Lets also accuse US of war crimes aswell after the shit they did in Iraq...
and believe me that the IDF commanders do care...
last thing they would want is to sit in jail for careless decisions.

Sure, the US is probably guilty of some war crimes fro Iraq. Maybe Falluja, if not the entire war being an illegal war of aggression? The Allies also perpetrated many war crimes in World War 2. Robert McNamara, in The Fog of War, says outright that them firebombing Tokyo and elsewhere and especially deciding to drop the nukes were war crimes, and they'd have been hanged if the war were lost.

IDF commanders aren't going to go to jail. Who's going to charge them? The Israeli courts? Are you kidding? They have nothing to fear. There isn't anything the government wants more than to be rid of the Palestinians. They aren't going to throw their own people to the wolves over a few hundred dead Palestinian children.

Originally Posted by Necronile

Nope...there is nothing for Israel to gain by killing civillians.
Civilian casualties are part of war,sad but true...
and again the only reason civillians are getting killed is beacuse terror organizations like hamas use them as human shields.

What they want is to force the Palestinians into submission. It's why they keep Gaza and the West Bank on the brink of economic collapse indefinitely. They want to make life as shitty as they can without causing a major humanitarian crisis, and that's straight from Wikileaks.

[Necronile]

Originally Posted by Warborn

What they want is to force the Palestinians into submission. It's why they keep Gaza and the West Bank on the brink of economic collapse indefinitely. They want to make life as shitty as they can without causing a major humanitarian crisis, and that's straight from Wikileaks.

Again,what is it to gain from forcing the Palestinians into submission?
And dont tell me resources,because there are no resources to gain from those specific territories.

Originally Posted by Neurotoxin

Yeah, you are right, Israel is perfect, they totally stole the Golan Heights from Syria because it was justified, they totally need to finish the job of wiping out those pesky natives that wanna call themselves Palestinians. Just like America is perfect, American murder and genocide of Native Americans was fine because they were godless savages who didn't understand property rights, and theft of property from Mexico (at gunpoint in Mexico City) was fine because America said it wanted a parallel country.

No sense arguing with someone who is brainwashed by ideology that supports them. You may have a few facts right, but your history of the struggle in the region is very biased and one-sided. I listen to the stories of the victims to learn about what is going on, not from learning the oppressor's ideology and justifications for brutal occupation. I know many Palestinians that still have the key to the lock on the front door of the house they used to live in, some even have photos or other details connecting them with their legitimate homes.

To everybody else, if you ever meet someone who has an oxidized key around their neck, who appears to be of Middle-Eastern descent, ask them about the key. If they turn out to be Palestinian, ask them more. Learn from victims, not oppressors.

This discussion has been a clinic in Zionist defense and deflection against blame for crimes against Palestinians. No more posts from me on this discussion, as you know my stance by now.

One last detail for anyone who cares, I organize with ANSWER Coalition to defend the rights of all oppressed people to self-determination within their own country, as well as fighting to end Apartheid wherever it exists in the world, and that isn't all ANSWER does either. Click the link and read up on Palestine from a different perspective than the Zionist pro-Israel narrative.

Same thing I can say about Palestinian and other arab people.
If I am brainwashed by ideology they are also brainwashed,thats what we learned through history...
and its kind of stupid for you to say its biased one sided struggle when you only concentrate on what happend to the palestinians only and not the ****.
Also get your facts straight about the golan heights,Israel didnt steal It,she occupied it after syria attacked her.
The only reason its still not in syria's hands its because they did not want to make peace like the rest of the arab countries.

[Figment]

Originally Posted by Necronile

Again,what is it to gain from forcing the Palestinians into submission?
And dont tell me resources,because there are no resources to gain from those specific territories.

Land. And time to 'legally' obtain it subtly through grandfather rights, basically. For instance, they want to have full say over all of Jerusalem, much like the Palestinians, who want to settle at half the city. To strengthen the Jewish claim on Jerusalem, more and more small bits of territory around Jerusalem and other areas are virtually annexed piece by piece (see map I've posted before).

Same thing I can say about Palestinian and other arab people.
If I am brainwashed by ideology they are also brainwashed,thats what we learned through history...

I believe everyone says both sides are not just trying (and in many cases succeeding) to brainwash, but pretty damn badly too. Nobody here has claimed one sided brainwashing or one sided baddies.

and its kind of stupid for you to say its biased one sided struggle when you only concentrate on what happend to the palestinians only and not the ****.

See above. You're putting words in people's mouths to strawmen them.


I would advise both you and Neurotoxin to read this without going "OHHH THEY DID IT" at the first sign of one side doing something:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet

Both sides are to blame for the Palestinian refugees, both sides stimulated the Palestinians to leave their homes, be it for different reasons and with different goals in mind.

Neither side wants to take responsibility for them. Basically, they've been screwed pretty badly, some of which self-imposed. Some after all considered it a calculated risk and expected the **** to, as Nasser put it "be driven into the sea" swiftly. To blame it all on the Arabs is too much. To blame it all on the **** is also out of line.


To blame all of it on ethnic and religious hatred, egomaniacs and bigotry, now you're getting somewhere.

[Necronile]

Originally Posted by Figment

Land. And time to 'legally' obtain it subtly through grandfather rights, basically. For instance, they want to have full say over all of Jerusalem, much like the Palestinians, who want to settle at half the city. To strengthen the Jewish claim on Jerusalem, more and more small bits of territory around Jerusalem and other areas are virtually annexed piece by piece (see map I've posted before).



I believe everyone says both sides are not just trying (and in many cases succeeding) to brainwash, but pretty damn badly too. Nobody here has claimed one sided brainwashing or one sided baddies.



See above. You're putting words in people's mouths to strawmen them.


I would advise both you and Neurotoxin to read this without going "OHHH THEY DID IT" at the first sign of one side doing something:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet

Both sides are to blame for the Palestinian refugees, both sides stimulated the Palestinians to leave their homes, be it for different reasons and with different goals in mind.

Neither side wants to take responsibility for them. Basically, they've been screwed pretty badly, some of which self-imposed. Some after all considered it a calculated risk and expected the **** to, as Nasser put it "be driven into the sea" swiftly. To blame it all on the Arabs is too much. To blame it all on the **** is also out of line.


To blame all of it on ethnic and religious hatred, egomaniacs and bigotry, now you're getting somewhere.

I agree with you that both sides are to blame for the problems now,but there wouldn't be this problem of territory if the palestinians agreed with the first plan to divide the country to jewish and arab states in '48.

[Warborn]

Originally Posted by Necronile

Again,what is it to gain from forcing the Palestinians into submission?
And dont tell me resources,because there are no resources to gain from those specific territories.

They want Israel for themselves and want the Palestinian problem to go away. Their handling of the Palestinians makes them look like shit internationally. It is a major nuisance for them. So if they could convince all the Palestinians to leave and go to Jordan, or to surrender all claims to the Palestinian occupied territories, or to otherwise make some deal that'd finally cede the area to Israel, then the Israeli government would have a big, ongoing burden lifted from it.