SCU Shield Change on PTS - Page 3

AThreatToYou · 2013-04-27, 11:25 PM

I really don't see why we don't have spawn tubes. The only issue is the spawn room location; it has to be moved inside the base or underground. That is probably what is stopping the devs from doing it.

Towers and outposts, too... but the outposts would need their spawns moved underground. It would be a really simple change that probably involves more work than I think...

yet I still believe that destructible spawn tubes and contestable spawn rooms are the way to go.

Mustakrakish · 2013-04-27, 11:54 PM

I'm not even remotely okay with this.

Tying the SCU shields to capture progress just shafts the defenders. The defenders will have to focus all their manpower on defending the SCU instead of trying to push out the attackers or take back the control points. Furthermore, even once the control points are retaken, the defenders will still have to hold them for X consecutive minutes to bring the shields back online, with the SCU exposed the whole time.

In short, with this change there will be no reason to show up at a facility once capture progress has broken the threshold.

CrankyTRex · 2013-04-27, 11:56 PM

Defensibility shouldn't be about timers. One of my biggest pet peeves is when a facility is clearly taken and everyone has to sit around en masse waiting for the timer to run out just to get the XP.

If they don't want ghost capping, then they have to either make it impossible to take something that isn't linked (which is pretty lame) or they'll have to set up some objectives that take a lot of time for an individual or smaller force to complete, thus giving the enemy some time to respond if they want (I find it very rare that anyone bothers.)

Though, like I said in another thread, I wonder if territory control should be an entirely new kind of system based around the position and number of actual boots on the ground, rather than points and bases and whatnot.

JesNC · 2013-04-28, 05:09 AM

I kinda see where this change is coming from. Currently, you have a hard time defending large facilities with only a few people, because you constantly have to shift your defense between CC and generator/SCU. This affect defense to a point where it's more viable for single squads to defend a tower base like the Bastion instead of the big 3.

This change should make it much easier to concentrate defense on the CC.

Figment · 2013-04-28, 05:21 AM

It's not going to have the intended effect. The lack of passive defense due to lack of base layout linearity (attackers still won't HAVE to move past defenders and choke points to reach their objectives so that defenders could defend multiple things at once) is and will be a bigger issue that overshadows any solution.

1. We regularly kept the Bio Lab gen and/or SCU up till 80-90% of the capture.
2. SCUs are not in any position you can defend. Since if you want to defend the CC, you often have to move hundreds of meters away from it.
3. In case of AMP stations, if they control the CC, they control the SCU and SCU gen anyway. This isn't going to change anything.
4. In case of Tech Plants, the SCU gen was in an impossible position to defend due to being a few hundred meters away from the spawns, despite of tunnels (which still suck).
5. 50% is completely arbitrary. It'll have a similar effect to the main base's outposts where you arbitrarily lose spawns half way through a cap without time to reach the CC.

If anything, defense logistics will suffer.

Maidere · 2013-04-28, 05:25 AM

Carbon Copied · 2013-04-28, 05:32 AM

I get the point of wanting to test new mechanics; but this just feels like a cheap, easy and lacklustre change.

Figment · 2013-04-28, 05:36 AM

Originally Posted by Koadster

too the PS1 vets and spawn tubes.. isn't the scu pretty much the design off those tubes ? Tubes gone = no spawning, scu gone = no spawning ?

No it's not. Not at all the same thing.

The spawntubes and spawnpoints were the exact same location. Meaning that there's virtualy ALWAYS defenders around it, making it very hard to reach and take down. Futhermore, if you downed one tube, there were still two others and it took some firepower to down them all, while there was a painfield (which could be upgraded in two ways) aiding defenders in taking down enemies trying to take down the spawns.

An SCU in PS2 is for some incredibly stupid reason NEVER inside the spawnroom or at least directly adjecent to the spawnroom (even the Bio Lab doesn't count as there's a huge crossfire hall in between). In most other bases the SCU was in a completely separate building.

Which means that most of the time there are no defenders moving through the SCU (and certainly not the SCU gen) areas. Due to their isolated placement, often closer to the CC than to the spawns, the attacker also gets far easier logistics to control all objectives than in PS1, where all objectives were much closer to the spawns than to the outdoor area. In PS1, if you held the lobby and/or stairwell and backdoor, you defended ALL objectives at the same time because enemies had to move through that choke point. Defenders trying to get anywhere (for instance the vehicle pad), would always move through these three chokepoints. This meant the choke points automatically had likely defender presence.

In case of the SCU in a Tech Plant, you already have 4 chokepoints to control, then there's the CC and SCU gen, which have 6-8 choke points to control.

Meanwhile, defenders do not automatically move through this area or these chokepoints, because of the detached barracks and isolated, modular building design.

This means that defenders have to spread out over a huge area, weakening their defense everywhere and being incapable of a concentrated effort. They have to move from point to point constantly and still will fail to keep people out and away from objectives. That means that in the new system, the SCU will have to be left alone, A LOT and since the SCU gen will be down by default at some point, it will be a lot more vulnerable.

Furthermore, you can't make a spec ops push on the SCU gen anymore to get it back up, so you don't have to worry about the SCU while attacking the CC, instead you are going to have to concentrate on the CC and holding the CC, which means that while you're trying to hold the CC and are forced to stay there, the SCU is left wide open as long as you haven't got the timer back to 50%.

The spawns HAVE to move into the main building and the SCU will have to be moved right next to it, with the CC and gens closer to spawns than to external entry points. Yet for some reason they keep avoiding to do that. Why do you think defenders ALWAYS place an AMS inside the main building? Because THAT is where the best defensive logistics are.

Whiteagle · 2013-04-28, 08:04 AM

Originally Posted by Figment

The spawns HAVE to move into the main building and the SCU will have to be moved right next to it, with the CC and gens closer to spawns than to external entry points. Yet for some reason they keep avoiding to do that. Why do you think defenders ALWAYS place an AMS inside the main building? Because THAT is where the best defensive logistics are.

Yeah, this is always flummoxed me about Planetside 2 Base Design, why DON'T the Major Facilities have integrated Spawns?

ringring · 2013-04-28, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by Whiteagle

Yeah, this is always flummoxed me about Planetside 2 Base Design, why DON'T the Major Facilities have integrated Spawns?

There is only one possible reason. The DEVS want to spread the action around rather than focus it into limited areas and the only reason for this that I can thinkof is for the sack of performance.

Look back to the change in the Tech Plant several months ago.

At that time there were fierce and epic battles attacking and defending tech plants. People loved tham and RivalXfactor even produced a 'how to' on Youtube showing viable tactics.

However, there were severe issues with rendering within the main building. The devs moved the shields from inside to outside the main building and lo and behold the rendering issue disappeared, along with the epic battles.

KodanBlack · 2013-04-28, 09:19 AM

I don't like it. Part of the fun is fighting over killing or saving those generators.

Lonehunter · 2013-04-28, 09:31 AM

I'm really cautious of this change, gut reaction is I don't like it. To me it's fixing one problem by implementing another.

I understand the problem of a base being too quickly stripped of it's defenses too early in the cap.

But I don't understand the removal of tactical choices. We now have even less to do at a base. It's just spawn vs spawn with a cap point somewhere in between :/

I know this new method guarantees a base's resistance a guarantee'd chance to defend, to the point in the hack when the SCU blows.

It also guarantees to DOOM them when that does flip. Instead of giving the resistance the whole cap time to resecure now they have till halfway, then it gets considerably harder. Doesn't even matter how well they defend the SCU. Even if a good coordinated team is able to push and fight to one of these gens their effort is in vein because there is nothing they can do but push towards the zerg objective.

They just put in these cap timers to give defenders a fighting chance now they're negating that. Why not just lower the overall cap times and make the base flip to the capturers?

In my opinion you should leave the generator mechanics as is, but they can't be attacked till a hack is halfway progressed. It gives defenders that first chance, and gives both sides an opportunity to strategize and utilize skill/effort to retake or defend it.

Falcon_br · 2013-04-28, 05:11 PM

It is already out of control, today I meet a NC outfit that the only thing they want to do in the game is blowing up enemy generator.
They just blew up all generators on Amerish today, me and my friends were defending the generators at Kawhtee amp station, far inside TR territory and the keep blowing those generator!
It must become official, if you can´t take the base you can´t overload the generator!

Figment · 2013-04-28, 05:19 PM

That's what you get for rewarding experience for overloading them, instead of tieing a tactical advantage to it.

Carbon Copied · 2013-04-28, 06:11 PM

The method and generator mechanic has never been the problem; it's always been the location and wider leaky base that causes the issues. This doesn't change spawn camping or any other issues that the base designs/building locales create. I'm just perplexed; redesign the bases and the current mechanics (albeit limited on doing) can stop as they are - seriously it continuously feels with that PS2 as a game takes one step forward and then several back.

Note: Not to be read as a cheap shot at the devs or anyone implementing the changes; but more so as a general feeling.