My main concern about the class system

[SKYeXile]

Originally Posted by Bags

I don't like class system at all. Their cert system in ps1 worked fine until we got half a million certs to spend.

I like your use of the my little pony avatar and the homosexuality it represents, i may just have to steal the use of it from you.

[cashfoyogash]

The only real way to keep people from mastering it all i think is to make it so there is so much to learn and it take so long to learn that its impossible. Much like EVE just to be a proficient miner it takes probably six months time to learn all those skills and then there is still many more mining skills to learn after that. I think SOE took a close look at how EVE did their skill learning set up, we should be ok.

[Lunarchild]

Originally Posted by cashfoyogash

The only real way to keep people from mastering it all i think is to make it so there is so much to learn and it take so long to learn that its impossible. Much like EVE just to be a proficient miner it takes probably six months time to learn all those skills and then there is still many more mining skills to learn after that. I think SOE took a close look at how EVE did their skill learning set up, we should be ok.

Which happens to be the exact thing I loathe about Eve. It takes six months to be effective at anything means you're not playing the game for six months. I personally hope it takes seconds, minutes or hours to learn the basic skill set for any class, definitely not more.

[Warruz]

Originally Posted by Lunarchild

Which happens to be the exact thing I loathe about Eve. It takes six months to be effective at anything means you're not playing the game for six months. I personally hope it takes seconds, minutes or hours to learn the basic skill set for any class, definitely not more.

I think their goal for such a system is to allow you to pick one class and learn it effortlessly and perhaps the starting certs for the other classes, however to get further down certs you will have to focus on one to keep it on track in terms of your BR. To get the others for other classes it will take more time.

[CutterJohn]

Originally Posted by cashfoyogash

Much like EVE just to be a proficient miner it takes probably six months time to learn all those skills and then there is still many more mining skills to learn after that.

In 3 months you can mine 80-90% as good as someone with every mining skill maxed. Which takes MUCH longer.

From how they describe it, You'll be 75% as effective day one at a role in PS2. Maybe missing some sidegrade options that increase your versatility or weapon choices, but you can do the job.

Originally Posted by DviddLeff

I also get the impression that many certs will have to be unlocked as you get more BR, so for example at BR5 you could get access to support certs, BR10 MAX, Infil and Agile armour, etc

Sounds like it to me too. But I also got the impression that BR was going to not be much of a chokepoint at all. I imagine they are leaving it in just so you can't train an alt up much without playing it for a period of time.

Originally Posted by Headrattle

Essentially you have traded the concept that a guy could have Engi/HA/AV/Medic at the same time as long as he has the Level (though not as effective at it) with a guy who can change into any class without reguardless of level (though not as effective at it.) It seems strange to me. You get rid of the options of having some different abilities as long as you are high enough level and certs, and replace it with having all different abilities from level one just not at the same time. See what I am getting at here? Doesn't look good.

I quite like it. You can change classes, but you must go re equip at a terminal. Thats fine by me. PS balance was silly.

"You drive lots of vehicles, so we're going to make you suck when you step out of them"

"You like infantry, so you're going to be farmed by vehicles outside"

PS balance was making you dominate in one area so you could suck in another. It twisted the certs into a rock paper scissors game, where you got to 'win' only part of the time, due to greatly superior equipment options, and put you at a disadvantage the rest of the time.

Thats silly. Its bad balance. Every armor, every vehicle, every weapon should have a role. No single combination should dominate in every situation to the point where thats what everyone picks. There should be a reason to bring MA to a base fight over HA. A reason to bring AV out into the field over a tank.

TF2 has 9 different classes. Do teams always pick just one class? Is there one or two classes that are clearly the best in 95% of the situations? Nope. Everything has a job, and people pick all the classes. Some more than others, sure, and it definitely depends on the environment, but there is always a healthy representation due to usefulness and personal preference.

If classes are balanced, class representation will be balanced. It won't matter if you can switch, because everyone else is switching too. To different stuff, all the time. Your worry that people can switch is a direct result of PSs lack of balance. You assume they will switch to the rexo/av/ha/med/eng class, or the AI max class, because those were clearly dominant in fights indoors, because in PS1, they are totally imbalanced vs any other infantry choice.

[Lonehunter]

I remember Higby saying jump jets will only be available to a lightly armored class.

But to the OP, I think we can still be close to a jack of all trades. Like in one class you can pick up a ground vech, air, a specialized weapon tree, some support skills. But you won't be able to advance deep into every tree?

I'm fine with regular infantry being able to get med engi, but those advanced down those support trees will heal/repair much faster, adv med, stuff like that.

[Headrattle]

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

I quite like it. You can change classes, but you must go re equip at a terminal. Thats fine by me. PS balance was silly.

"You drive lots of vehicles, so we're going to make you suck when you step out of them"

"You like infantry, so you're going to be farmed by vehicles outside"

PS balance was making you dominate in one area so you could suck in another. It twisted the certs into a rock paper scissors game, where you got to 'win' only part of the time, due to greatly superior equipment options, and put you at a disadvantage the rest of the time.

Not really. You had options. You couldn't be everything ever. You could have a vehicle specialty, and an infantry specialty. And you couldn't do the same thing at the same time and be really effective it. Being a driver and carrying around a glue gun meant that you couldn't carry around a lot of ammo or an extra weapon and you weren't usually in Rexo. You could still do that, provided you had the certs, and then you could do it only at an equipment station.

Thats silly. Its bad balance. Every armor, every vehicle, every weapon should have a role. No single combination should dominate in every situation to the point where thats what everyone picks. There should be a reason to bring MA to a base fight over HA. A reason to bring AV out into the field over a tank.

I will agree that HA dominates the situation now, but before we had so many certs HA wasn't so bad. You didn't have HA because you had othercerts that were just as important. Now you HAVE to have HA. But it wasn't always like that. But it is going to have to have Rock Paper Scissors type balance no matter what. Only now EVERYONE has access to whatever skill they need. All the time.

This isn't TF2, so that is a bad example. Classes in TF2 would not work well in a MMOFPS because in PS2 the types of battles will be more varied. Not the same essentially close range grudge fights that TF2 has.

If classes are balanced, class representation will be balanced. It won't matter if you can switch, because everyone else is switching too. To different stuff, all the time. Your worry that people can switch is a direct result of PSs lack of balance. You assume they will switch to the rexo/av/ha/med/eng class, or the AI max class, because those were clearly dominant in fights indoors, because in PS1, they are totally imbalanced vs any other infantry choice.

But it only became that way because they added the possibility of so many cert points. It wasn't always thus. What you are complaining about is only going to get worse. Is there a heavy indoor battle? Most everyone jumps to HA classes. Is it a heavy outdoor battle? Most everyone jumps to AV or long range AI classes. With classes the game of Rock Paper Scissors will get WORSE, not better.

[Malorn]

What you are complaining about is only going to get worse. Is there a heavy indoor battle? Most everyone jumps to HA classes. Is it a heavy outdoor battle? Most everyone jumps to AV or long range AI classes. With classes the game of Rock Paper Scissors will get WORSE, not better.

This is a really good point. If anyone can switch at any time they'll go with whatever the best class is for the situation. I'd like to hear how they plan on addressing that.

I don't think the old system is the correct solution, it would need some modification but the core ideas are sound. Of course at this point they've probably invested so much into the new design that completely revamping it may not be practical. It was one of the two big hightlights of the fanfaire...the new cert system & the resource/territory control changes. Going back on that would take a lot of convincing and would require some fundamental flaws that cannot be resolved by tweaking that system. I think that is quite unlikely. The new system is very likely going to stay, so the question is the nuances of it as opposed to the fundamentals.

[Headrattle]

Originally Posted by Malorn

This is a really good point. If anyone can switch at any time they'll go with whatever the best class is for the situation. I'd like to hear how they plan on addressing that.

And this happens in most class games. Enter into a TF2 game for example. Even though it is a constant close in battle, and everyone has their roles, if there is a role sorely lacking (no medic or no heavy) the new guy is more likely to choose that role. This will get worse for PS2. Assaulting a base with high walls? Most people will likely use the jump jets to get there. Constant infantry zerging in? Most will choose HA. People will tend to choose what they are having the most success at in any given moment. There were many times in PS1 that I wish I had a certain cert at a certain time, but didn't so I had to make due. I still had fun, but I couldn't be everything at once with any real success. With classes, if I need to be something at a certain time, I just hit an equipment station and I am that class. I believe that most players will do this because in other less varied games most players DO do this.

I don't think the old system is the correct solution, it would need some modification but the core ideas are sound. Of course at this point they've probably invested so much into the new design that completely revamping it may not be practical. It was one of the two big hightlights of the fanfaire...the new cert system & the resource/territory control changes. Going back on that would take a lot of convincing and would require some fundamental flaws that cannot be resolved by tweaking that system. I think that is quite unlikely. The new system is very likely going to stay, so the question is the nuances of it as opposed to the fundamentals.

I agree. We shouldn't have a cert system exactly like PS1, but we should be working to make it better. There is another thing. The cert system gave your character personality. This is my tank driver, he is geared to drive tanks and support when out of the tank. I have an HA/AV guy, but he isn't as high. Things like that.

I think that getting the cert so you can choose the class in the first place would be good, but only after so much time has passed so you can know what you want to do.

[Coreldan]

Originally Posted by Headrattle

I agree. We shouldn't have a cert system exactly like PS1, but we should be working to make it better. There is another thing. The cert system gave your character personality. This is my tank driver, he is geared to drive tanks and support when out of the tank. I have an HA/AV guy, but he isn't as high. Things like that.

I think that getting the cert so you can choose the class in the first place would be good, but only after so much time has passed so you can know what you want to do.

On another note, "requiring" alts is bad design, IMO

[kaffis]

Originally Posted by Malorn

This is a really good point. If anyone can switch at any time they'll go with whatever the best class is for the situation. I'd like to hear how they plan on addressing that.

Time-based skill tree training.

Sure, in an indoor fight, everybody will be in the HA role or whatever. But only 4 people out of 20 will be heavily invested in it. So you've got 16 people grunting around at 100-105%, and 4 people grunting around at 115-120%. I'll take that. Especially when you consider that it'll be 4 people grunting at 115%+ HA, 3 people Medicing at 115%+, 2 people Engineering at 115%+, one or two people Commanding at 115%+, 2 people in MAX suits at 115%+, and then the remaining 8 people (who are heavily invested in vehicles and piloting) HA grunting at 105%.

Honestly? I like this better than a restrictive number of certs in old-school PS1 days. Because now, my whole two-squad platoon is working together inside, instead of the tank driver(s) and his gunners sitting in the courtyard while the reaver pilot(s) just roam all over the damn place because they weren't certed for indoor combat.

[ShowNoMercy]

Originally Posted by cashfoyogash

The only real way to keep people from mastering it all i think is to make it so there is so much to learn and it take so long to learn that its impossible. Much like EVE just to be a proficient miner it takes probably six months time to learn all those skills and then there is still many more mining skills to learn after that. I think SOE took a close look at how EVE did their skill learning set up, we should be ok.

Thats what makes eve so crappy and PS1 so good. The skill gap between a PS1 newb and vet is simply a matter of in game play time and experience. The gap between an eve newb and vet depends on how far apart they started playing and will always exist.

[Baron]

Originally Posted by ShowNoMercy

Thats what makes eve so crappy and PS1 so good. The skill gap between a PS1 newb and vet is simply a matter of in game play time and experience. The gap between an eve newb and vet depends on how far apart they started playing and will always exist.

I believe devs also said that no matter what, the maximum difference between a BR Awesome veteran and a guy logging in for the first time will be 15%-20%.

To me this is more balanced than it is now, with free REXO / 3 implant slots / etc... I love the fact that a BR1 can engage and possible win against a BR40, I don't think the devs will mess with that success chance very much.

[ShowNoMercy]

Originally Posted by Baron

I believe devs also said that no matter what, the maximum difference between a BR Awesome veteran and a guy logging in for the first time will be 15%-20%.

To me this is more balanced than it is now, with free REXO / 3 implant slots / etc... I love the fact that a BR1 can engage and possible win against a BR40, I don't think the devs will mess with that success chance very much.

So you dont think there will be goodies along the tree that award benefits like implants in PS1? the devs only made comment to the overall dmg output. There could still be skills later up the tree that make things unbalanced in a vet's favor.

Additionally, In PS1 you could play for 6months and get br25 pretty easy. In PS2 I fear that no matter how long I play, if i started a year behind you I will always be a year behind you in skills.

[Vancha]

Originally Posted by ShowNoMercy

Thats what makes eve so crappy and PS1 so good. The skill gap between a PS1 newb and vet is simply a matter of in game play time and experience. The gap between an eve newb and vet depends on how far apart they started playing and will always exist.

Newb: I shot you plentiful times, Veteran. How is it your body does not lay at my feet?!

Vet: I had Personal Shield, defenseless newbie. It drains my stamina instead of my mortality, so that I might survive to fight another day!

Newb: How might I obtain such a mighty tool, oh distinguished Veteran of war?

Vet: From the depositories that imbue super powers at battle ranks 6, 12 and 18!