Will everyone have access to some AV/anti-MAX weaponry?

[FIREk]

Originally Posted by FriendlyFire

Any situation can be made to sound as bad (or good) if the right examples are used.

A well rounded team, attacking or defending, should always be stronger than a group of random, unorganized, players.

Stronger is one thing, constantly getting steamrolled as a random, unorganized player, is another. And steamrolling is what happens when an organized team figures out how unstoppable MAXes are if the opposition doesn't have a specific counter.

An advantage is fine, but if random players (which PS2 needs, as a game) keep hitting walls on a regular basis, even though they have individual FPS skill, they end up with a game that keeps punishing them.

This is what happens in APB and is possibly one of the reasons why people cheat there so eagerly.

You give a player any sort of counter against anything - he goes down fighting. Give him nothing - he goes down powerless and eventually feels cheated. He may learn and eventually start playing as an AV trooper, but he may quit the game entirely, before he has a chance to learn.

[FriendlyFire]

Originally Posted by FIREk

Stronger is one thing, constantly getting steamrolled as a random, unorganized player, is another. And steamrolling is what happens when an organized team figures out how unstoppable MAXes are if the opposition doesn't have a specific counter.

An advantage is fine, but if random players (which PS2 needs, as a game) keep hitting walls on a regular basis, even though they have individual FPS skill, they end up with a game that keeps punishing them.

This is what happens in APB and is possibly one of the reasons why people cheat there so eagerly.

You give a player any sort of counter against anything - he goes down fighting. Give him nothing - he goes down powerless and eventually feels cheated. He may learn and eventually start playing as an AV trooper, but he may quit the game entirely, before he has a chance to learn.

PS2 should be balanced around team work not "OMGMUHMIZZILZPWNEVRYTHNG." It sounds like PS2 is going to be a team based game and not balanced around being a Super Soldier. We are essentially saying the same thing. With the class system players will have the opportunity to "balance" their side.

Just to be clear, I am not wanting MAXs to be one man, indoor, tanks, but I think the balancing should be done so they can fill their role and excel at it. Just like HA/AV/MED/ENG excel at their roles.

I agree with Malorn.

[FIREk]

Just to clarify, I don't want to resurrect the current everyone_has_badass_AV_on_their_back scheme. I don't want universal super-soldiers.

My point is to give everyone a pathetic (when compared to proper AV weaponry) counter to MAXes and vehicles, so that a room full of grunts will be able to kill a reckless MAX or two, at the cost of ignoring any infantry that may have flooded in behind them.

Whether it's a grenade, a light rocket launcher (RPG/LAW-ish) or AP ammo, I don't care. I just want _something_ to even the odds, and don't want the MAX to be the only infantry class that needs a specific counter-class to be killed, unlike every other class.

[Malorn]

I like ap ammo. It has a clear tradeoff and is also not as effective as true AV.

[EASyEightyEight]

You'd be surprised how fast a MAX being pelted by 3-4 guys using standard ammo will go down. The problem is most people have it ingrained in their heads to run like hell when they see a MAX, instead of focus firing upon it. 2 guys with AP ammo will cut it down without ever needing to reload. Most VS really don't know how easy they have it in that regard. The pulsar is a beast, but that and the armor is all I miss about the VS.

The counter to MAXes without access to AV weaponry is to simply shoot at it... from behind cover of course. They're pretty damn slow. Use that advantage.

[Talek Krell]

Just so we're all on the same page: no one is suggesting that maxes be immune to small arms fire or anything, right? So it's not that infantry *couldn't* take down a max without AV, it would just take concentrated fire.

[Effective]

Fun fact about max units currently in PS1, every max in the game has a faster TTK then the decimator (6 seconds), so for all the people who are complaining about the decimator being to powerful (or something like that), DIAF please.

Reduce all max units into 1 suit with interchangeable weapons, reduce price of max unit + weapons, reduce effectiveness vs. infantry with AA/AV weapons, remove armor healing from medical terminals, make AV/AP ammo do health damage to max units. Then add a GOOD infantry held counter for max units OR a max unit that won't suicide due to splash damage, yet can still kill several max units (think the original TR DC max).

There should be LESS max units, not more. There needs to be BETTER max counters, not worse. Currently the RPS concept for PS1 is broken (especially with the addition of extra BR). My biggest issue with max units is that it makes it nearly impossible to physically push enemy bases when you have less pop then said enemies, because all they have to do is just pull max unit after max unit after max unit, to drive you out of their base. I find max units dumb down teamwork rather then enhance it.

Worried about choke points that max units are needed for? Make bases and fighting areas less crowded and reduce the number of narrow hallways, encourage MA rifle usage. Easy solution is easy

As for the "super solider comments", reduce battle rank back to BR20, increase cert costs for various certs, easy solution is easy. Give players the option to solo still if they don't want to play with a group, but make them pay the price for those certs. Being able to self-repair/heal yourself without screaming like a little girl for a heal and still have some fighting ability was one of the things I enjoyed about PS1.

Back on topic, the lancer is the best AV in the game, the striker is the most useless AV in the game, and the phoenix is awesome indoors or in groups of 5 or more.

[Vancha]

Originally Posted by Effective

Fun fact about max units currently in PS1, every max in the game has a faster TTK then the decimator (6 seconds), so for all the people who are complaining about the decimator being to powerful (or something like that), DIAF please.

Does that include all the time the infantry spends behind a wall between shots?

Originally Posted by Effective

As for the "super solider comments", reduce battle rank back to BR20, increase cert costs for various certs, easy solution is easy. Give players the option to solo still if they don't want to play with a group, but make them pay the price for those certs. Being able to self-repair/heal yourself without screaming like a little girl for a heal and still have some fighting ability was one of the things I enjoyed about PS1.

Assuming we'll have some self-healing capability (medpacks/implants etc.), I think classes could be better, so long as they're given enough cool things to make up for the loss in versatility.

[Effective]

Originally Posted by Vancha

Does that include all the time the infantry spends behind a wall between shots?


Assuming we'll have some self-healing capability (medpacks/implants etc.), I think classes could be better, so long as they're given enough cool things to make up for the loss in versatility.

Afterall, max units can't camp at a corner either ./end sarcasm (but no, hold the trigger down, 6 seconds to fire 3 decis).

I don't see what was wrong with being able to heal and repair yourself, things only started getting unbalanced AFTER they added in extra battle rank.

[Malorn]

Originally Posted by Effective

Fun fact about max units currently in PS1, every max in the game has a faster TTK then the decimator (6 seconds), so for all the people who are complaining about the decimator being to powerful (or something like that), DIAF please.

Reduce all max units into 1 suit with interchangeable weapons, reduce price of max unit + weapons, reduce effectiveness vs. infantry with AA/AV weapons, remove armor healing from medical terminals, make AV/AP ammo do health damage to max units. Then add a GOOD infantry held counter for max units OR a max unit that won't suicide due to splash damage, yet can still kill several max units (think the original TR DC max).

There should be LESS max units, not more. There needs to be BETTER max counters, not worse. Currently the RPS concept for PS1 is broken (especially with the addition of extra BR). My biggest issue with max units is that it makes it nearly impossible to physically push enemy bases when you have less pop then said enemies, because all they have to do is just pull max unit after max unit after max unit, to drive you out of their base. I find max units dumb down teamwork rather then enhance it.

Worried about choke points that max units are needed for? Make bases and fighting areas less crowded and reduce the number of narrow hallways, encourage MA rifle usage. Easy solution is easy

As for the "super solider comments", reduce battle rank back to BR20, increase cert costs for various certs, easy solution is easy. Give players the option to solo still if they don't want to play with a group, but make them pay the price for those certs. Being able to self-repair/heal yourself without screaming like a little girl for a heal and still have some fighting ability was one of the things I enjoyed about PS1.

Back on topic, the lancer is the best AV in the game, the striker is the most useless AV in the game, and the phoenix is awesome indoors or in groups of 5 or more.

You max suggestions would render MAX useless and far too easy to kill. Their purpose is combined arms. Used in mass is a problem but not in moderation (like most things). You seem to not want them in the game. However if you have current planetside as your context... Current PS is so far down the crapper i dont think any conclusions should be based on it.

[Effective]

Originally Posted by Malorn

You max suggestions would render MAX useless and far too easy to kill. Their purpose is combined arms. Used in mass is a problem but not in moderation (like most things). You seem to not want them in the game. However if you have current planetside as your context... Current PS is so far down the crapper i dont think any conclusions should be based on it.

How would they be far to easy to kill? It'd be the exact same TTK. The only difference is...

1 Max armor with interchangeable weapons
- People will no longer be able to spam max suit after max suit, wearing down enemies through attrition instead of skill/teamwork
- It prevents 1 person being able to rotate his max armors to reset his health, I've pulled a burster, killed a softie, took 2 decis, pulled pounder killed a softie, took 2 decis, pulled my DC max, killed a softie, took 2 decis, switched to agile sweeper and killed another, oh yeah, that super balanced.
- It allows a max user to freely switch out his weapon, without setting a timer on his previous weapon (so this is a buff really)

Having AP/AV weapons do health damage
- People will no longer be able to grab a max from a terminal during the middle of a fight, and be basically back to full health even though he might only have 1 HP left (though this is extremely amusing, it's also extremely not fun to fight against).

Removing armor healing from medical terminals
- it makes sure that teammate need to repair friendly maxs

Adding a good handheld counter for the max unit OR adding a max unit that isn't going to suicide on itself because of splash damage, but is still decent at killing other max units
- People speak of the deci as some end all of max units when it's not, it's OK if you're defensive and a max is pushing you, but if the situation is reversed, the deci is about as useful as using a suppressor standard against HA rexo, adding a decent hand held infantry counter will reinforce good FPS skills and TEAMWORK, instead of overwhelming and opponent via attrition.
- If not a decent hand held counter, a anti-max max then. Good AV damage, no splash weapons so it won't suicide on itself. The reason I find AV max such a poor counter is that you HAVE to be defensive to make the best of it, and in order to make sure you don't splash yourself, you have to expose yourself to enemy fire to often hit what you want to hit, making you into decimator/AV bait.

There needs to be a decent max counter in the game and I'd prefer it to not be another max unit, though it could be it's own cert and expensive. Because having another max being the only real max counter is going to encourage the proliferation of max units again, turning planetside 2 into a boring camp fest like PS1 is. Max units in PS1 are only used to overwhelm a small group of good players (though to be fair, defense is horribly overpowered in PS1 with camping corners and interlink), but max units also make it nearly impossible to successfully push, fight, and win against higher population.

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

Limiting what they can carry is a far easier method of limiting super soldiers, and doesn't force people to play the same way every day.

There's nothing wrong with the current cert system, it only went wrong when they added in extra battle rank. If you want to change the way you play, SOE just needs to add in free certification resets every 1-2 weeks, and then you should also have the option to make alternate characters. Removing soloing from PS is not a good idea in my opinion.

If you're worried about HA/AV/Rexo/Mossie/Medical/Engineering/Adv hack/etc, individuals. Increase the cost of certain support certs, decrease cert points back to BR20. Bam, soloing/self-reliability is still available to a certain degree. But it will be impossible to have HA/AV/Rexo/Mossie/Medical/Engineering/Adv. hack (which is what you could get up to BR23).

[EASyEightyEight]

Yeah, knock it backto BR20 as teh cap and now one has to choose between adv hacking or the mossie. No way in hell they'll ditch the rexo/HA/AV/med/engi combo, they're too damn important. The other two are like bonus in comparison, ease of travel or faster hack times.

Classes really are the way to go. Solo play needs some real definitive limiter. Sure, you can heal yourself, but you're not going to be packing anything much bigger than a standard issue rifle, and your armor will eventually reach its limit. Likewise, you can come geared to take on an army of MAX suits, but you'll need support to shrug off all the wounds you may suffer in the process.

Right now, if for ANY reason you're NOT in a vehicle, you probably have a med-app and a glue gun fused to your ass. It's not even a choice anymore. No one ever truly backs each other up for the sake of mutual survival as a result. Classes will change that.

Restrict the cert points even further to prevent the rexo/HA/AV/engi/med combo, and why have certs at all? You buy two skills and you're done. Time to reroll!

[Raymac]

Originally Posted by Effective

There's nothing wrong with the current cert system, it only went wrong when they added in extra battle rank. If you want to change the way you play, SOE just needs to add in free certification resets every 1-2 weeks, and then you should also have the option to make alternate characters. Removing soloing from PS is not a good idea in my opinion.

Considering the extremely deep skill trees that the devs have been excitedly mentioning, it sounds like that train has already left the station. If you are hoping for PS2 to have the PS1 cert system, it's already too late and you are just going to have to deal with it.

Also, I'm getting a sense in your posts that you kinda don't like Max units. I wonder how much you actually use them, because you keep talking about this TTK with decis as if infantry don't go behind cover between shots and use the Max's slow speed and agility against them. While it's true that AI Maxes just melt infantry (that kind of is what their purpose is), I don't have much luck killing infantry with AA or even AV Maxes. That doesn't mean other players don't have better skill, but it's not as easy as you seem to think.

I guess my point about Maxes is that I don't think they are as broken as you seem to say. I love your idea of 1 Max suit + different weapon attachments, but I think you are overstating the power of the Max vs. Infantry w/ AV.

[CutterJohn]

Originally Posted by Effective

As for the "super solider comments", reduce battle rank back to BR20, increase cert costs for various certs, easy solution is easy. Give players the option to solo still if they don't want to play with a group, but make them pay the price for those certs. Being able to self-repair/heal yourself without screaming like a little girl for a heal and still have some fighting ability was one of the things I enjoyed about PS1.

Limiting what they can carry is a far easier method of limiting super soldiers, and doesn't force people to play the same way every day.