3D spotting

[Vancha]

Originally Posted by Kran De Loy

People playing the game being the content this seems like anything that directly effects the player base would effect the gameplay.

Simply effecting the gameplay doesn't mean it benefits gameplay.

Originally Posted by Kran De Loy

Single target 3D spotting would give Squad Leaders and possibly recon Infils greater control over their squad making directions and commands quicker and more fluid making taking or defending objectives easier and/or quicker.

Now we're getting to it. The implementation you have in mind would benefit gameplay if taking or defending objectives needed to be easier or quicker?

[Erendil]

Originally Posted by Kran De Loy

laelgon and Erendil, you're both assuming that the person/people making the markers have time to stop, open their map and fiddle with it.

That overall map I figure will be used for missions and commanders putting up route highlights or other stuff. In the perspective of the infantry squad in the midst of the battle time is life and very few people would be willing to take the time to mouse over a grid map when they're being shot at or in the process of taking a base.

Um, I don't mean to sound argumentative, but do you even know what the minimap is that we're referring to? IT'S THE RADAR. It's located on your HUD all of the time and requires nothing but a quick keystroke to get a mouse pointer on your HUD so you can click the radar. No separate map screen is used, and you don't even have to stop moving to use it since PS1 had an auto-run key so you could keep running forward while using your mouse on the HUD, and I presume PS2 will too.

Plus, you're not going to be shot at every single second of a battle, and there's always plenty of cover to hide behind for a quick couple of seconds to give you time to click the minimap.

And you will run into literally dozens of times every day where you can be in the middle of a firefight and have nobody shooting at you because of the huge number of friendly forces around you. It happens all the time in PS1, and you'd be surprised at the things you can get away with in a large battle while in LoS of the enemy, be it healing yourself, repping MAxes, rezzing teammates, looting backpacks of fallen soldiers, etc. It's something you don't find very often in smaller 32vs32 games due to the smaller maps and limited number of enemy troops that are present.

[Kran De Loy]

Originally Posted by Vancha

Now we're getting to it. The implementation you have in mind would benefit gameplay if taking or defending objectives needed to be easier or quicker?

True...

When I typed that particular part I spent a good 3 minutes trying to figure out exactly what would be the benefit of 3D spotting used for calling targets. That was pretty much the only thing I could come up with other then giving SL's another tool/control to aid their squad which I had already stated...

Then when I think about 2D radar they're pretty much exactly the same thing except they're designed for mass spotting. Like having some implant that reveals nearby enemy locations, enemy weapons fire and enemies in LOS and x range of squadmates would be shown on the 2D map.

And like I said to those other two guys, SL do not have the time to open up their map and fiddle with it when they're concentrating on taking an object or being shoot at while defending one so interacting with a 2D map outside of hotkey command lines is pretty much out the window.

Also I'd like to point out that 3D spotting reveals an enemy target that is at X (left, right) and Y(up-down) coordinates while 2D spotting reveals an enemy target that is at X and Z (distance) coordinates. Meaning that 3D spotting does not reveal distance the same as 2D does not reveal height.

[Kran De Loy]

Originally Posted by Erendil

.

Just because you'd be willing to take a few seconds behind cover to mess with your HUD doesn't mean that everyone will. Vice Versa, doesn't mean that everyone wont either, but I'm inclined to believe that you're idea would just feel clunky and immersion breaking. Also just because there are times when you're not getting shot or positions where you're comfortable in feeling that you wont be shot for a few seconds does not mean that you wont be shot. No one can know what will happen in a fire fight while it's happening.

[Stardouser]

Originally Posted by Kran De Loy

Just because you'd be willing to take a few seconds behind cover to mess with your HUD doesn't mean that everyone will. Vice Versa, doesn't mean that everyone wont either, but I'm inclined to believe that you're idea would just feel clunky and immersion breaking.

What are you talking about? Making static markers? If so, static markers do not have to be made by clicking the minimap. There are a few options there:
1. Context sensitive 3D spot similar to Battlefield but the spot simply remains static and does not follow the spotted target if they move
2. You look at an area and hit a 3D deploy marker button, similar to how a squad leader in BF2 can issue an order to his squad, he puts his aiming sight where he wants his squad to go, hits T and mouses over to Attack Here. Which by the way is a feature PS2 needs.

[Kran De Loy]

Originally Posted by Stardouser

What are you talking about? Making static markers? If so, static markers do not have to be made by clicking the minimap. There are a few options there:
1. Context sensitive 3D spot similar to Battlefield but the spot simply remains static and does not follow the spotted target if they move
2. You look at an area and hit a 3D deploy marker button, similar to how a squad leader in BF2 can issue an order to his squad, he puts his aiming sight where he wants his squad to go, hits T and mouses over to Attack Here. Which by the way is a feature PS2 needs.

You and Erendril are pointing two different things.
Erendril wanted to mess with the radar, but I see how using a 3D interface to place those markers would help out with that issue. And when I mentioned static markers I mean stuff that didn't follow the target, not something stayed there indefinitely. I should have said that spotted target markers would be static position and fade away have 2 seconds on infantry targets.

Wait, I did say that. Also that marked Vehicles should get a 4 second marker on them that DOES follow the vehicle before fading away. Those would be linked to the 4 second cooldown on SL's being able to 3D mark targets.

[Erendil]

Originally Posted by Kran De Loy

Just because you'd be willing to take a few seconds behind cover to mess with your HUD doesn't mean that everyone will. Vice Versa, doesn't mean that everyone wont either, but I'm inclined to believe that you're idea would just feel clunky and immersion breaking. Also just because there are times when you're not getting shot or positions where you're comfortable in feeling that you wont be shot for a few seconds does not mean that you wont be shot. No one can know what will happen in a fire fight while it's happening.

That's why each of my teaching suggestions gave players extra incentives to use it. You'd be surprised the lengths that people will go to to get a big XP bonus or extra intel about the enemy. And that's what they'd get for a keystroke, a mouse click or two and a few seconds of their time.

As for breaking immersion... From your post history it looks like you played PS1. Did using an equipment or vehicle terminal break your immersion? How about looting a backpack? Each of those required mouse clicks, keystrokes, and HUD interaction in order to use. My suggestions would be less clunky and intrusive than those.

Lastly, the "you could get still get shot even if you feel safe" is a piss poor argument. That is the reality of a large-scale persistent wargame like PS1/2. No matter where you are or how quiet the area seems, you could still get shot/stabbed/blown up anywhere, any time. And in PS1 it certainly didn't stop people from doing things requiring HUD interaction like using vehicle terms, upgrading wall turrets, etc even while the base was under attack, did it?

My ideas were suggestions to get new players used to the idea of using the minimap to track enemy forces. But like just about anything else you do in a battle, it involves an element of risk for the reward you get. However, I think people would still use them to get the XP boost and free intel.

[Kran De Loy]

Using XP gain as an insensitive to do anything (even taking objects) is pretty annoying to me actually. I can see why it's needed for a lot of things (like taking objectives or playing the Air Taxi instead of just killing people all the time), but using it to crutch walk players into play habits and styles just doesn't feel right.. Can't place why yet... Maybe something to do with allowing game rules to influence play style too much...

I agree that the Not Safe Anywhere argument is pretty poor, but apparently you agree with me that it's still a present factor just one you think should be ignored in some cases. I'd include that the factor of Not Safe is a bit higher now that all factions have jump troops and bases are set up to open up more (platforms?) positions for firing from/angles of fire. I know this also means there are more places to take cover, but I'm making the point that mobility has also been increased along with the general increase in pacing for PS2. Taking the time to open up a menu will be a higher risk then it ever was in PS1.

Looting and terminals weren't immersion breakers back then as they were extensions of actions you had taken in FPS in game. These days holding alt to move your mouse across your FPS screen and click on the radar of your HUD is really immersion breaking. Which is all pretty moot as Stardouser pointed out because they could implement a way for a 3D control system to do the same thing without having to bring up menus at all. Which would be quicker, tho equally dangerous as it couldn't be used as effectively while behind cover.

Also I only played PS1 for about a year and that was a long time ago so I'm mostly working off vague memories in that regard and thus I'm trying to keep my arguments with more recent FPS games in mind. Nuclear Dawn, Battlefield 2 and BF:Bad Company, Killing Floor, Red Orchestra 2: Heroes of Stalingrad, and Space Marine (Arena TPS, I know, but shield systems somewhat similar to PS2's ideas).

[NewSith]

I wonder how many people that voted "none" actually know that 2d spotting was in the original game...

[Skitrel]

Originally Posted by JHendy

3D spotting is a console mechanic that somehow made its way onto the PC versions of two Battlefield games, which is the ONLY reason it's being considered for use in Planetside 2. Not because it needs to be in this game, or because it'll be beneficial to gameplay, but simply because it's in Battlefield. As said above, the devs seem to be fanatical about duplicating a lot of Battlefield's features, without first considering whether they actually need to be in Planetside 2. (...)

Why the hell would you put a console handicap mechanic in a PC exclusive FPS? Why?

That's funny... I wasn't aware 2142 was released on consoles, which console was it released on? Oh yeah... It wasn't. If you're going to make arguments at least check what you're saying isn't giant utter bollocks.

Also, it worked wonderfully in 2142 and was called netbat back then, netbat was fantastic. It's just since been overbuffed for one reason or another, likely because it was something of an underperforming game, despite being amazing. Underperforming game's mechanics are generally consider in need of mechanic overhauls.

[Stardouser]

Originally Posted by Skitrel

That's funny... I wasn't aware 2142 was released on consoles, which console was it released on? Oh yeah... It wasn't. If you're going to make arguments at least check what you're saying isn't giant utter bollocks.

Also, it worked wonderfully in 2142 and was called netbat back then, netbat was fantastic. It's just since been overbuffed for one reason or another, likely because it was something of an underperforming game, despite being amazing. Underperforming game's mechanics are generally consider in need of mechanic overhauls.

Wait, if you're praising 2142's implementation, which had squad only 3D spotting, then you won't object to PS2 3D spotting being squad only? I certainly wouldn't.

Squad only 3D spot I will accept as teamwork, entire-team 3D spotting, however, is zerging.

[Skitrel]

Originally Posted by Stardouser

Wait, if you're praising 2142's implementation, which had squad only 3D spotting, then you won't object to PS2 3D spotting being squad only? I certainly wouldn't.

Not at all, I think it's a suitable way to go with it. I feel like there are other methods worth exploring though. I feel like at least in beta, multiple methods should be tested to gauge what overall works best.

And if we're going to go down the netbat implementation, as a whole I feel like it could serve some extra team work roles, particularly giving infils and specced squad leaders more importance to the team as a whole. Specced infil or specced squad leaders should have faction wide spotting while everyone else gets 2D spotting and squad only 3D spotting.

That's at least one other way I can see as a good method to implement it. Though I'd like to see us get the chance to test multiple variations over the many month long beta we ought to be getting.

[Stardouser]

Originally Posted by Skitrel

Not at all, I think it's a suitable way to go with it. I feel like there are other methods worth exploring though. I feel like at least in beta, multiple methods should be tested to gauge what overall works best.

And if we're going to go down the netbat implementation, as a whole I feel like it could serve some extra team work roles, particularly giving infils and specced squad leaders more importance to the team as a whole. Specced infil or specced squad leaders should have faction wide spotting while everyone else gets 2D spotting and squad only 3D spotting.

That's at least one other way I can see as a good method to implement it. Though I'd like to see us get the chance to test multiple variations over the many month long beta we ought to be getting.

well, hell, we just solved the problem then, except wait...inb4 "I don't want to be punished for not squadding up".

[Kran De Loy]

How would spotting work for a person by themself? If they're not by themselves why aren't they part of the squad? If they can't be a part of the squad because there are only 11 guys there total and squads only hold 10 people then your a dufus. Make more friends.

[Stardouser]

Originally Posted by Kran De Loy

How would spotting work for a person by themself? If they're not by themselves why aren't they part of the squad? If they can't be a part of the squad because there are only 11 guys there total and squads only hold 10 people then your a dufus. Make more friends.

Well, first of all, why would one be spotting for one's self? If you can see the enemy, shoot at him. And if one is spotting while not in a squad it's probably because one wants to abuse the mechanic to give a free aiming aid.

This is actually a great way to get people to squad up!