Should aircraft be able to see infantry on radar?

[Stew]

No air craft driver should have skills and eagle eyes to be true bad ass pilots the aircraft domination must be HARD as possible to achive it will also be more rewarding for the few who can acomplish that

[Rbstr]

Yes, because this is yet another poll that's too binary.

[Alduron]

They should be able to see infantry on the radar only when target is spotted by a teammate. Largely for the role of close air support.

You're missing a lot of senses in games, and it's much easier to flag the enemy on the pilots map than it is to guide him there with long-winded instructions.

It's not an instant kill if an enemy is on the pilots minimap. It almost seems like some of the people above think that rockets and bullets magically one-shot people that are on the minimap. Still takes time/skill to maneuver into position and fire. It looks like aircraft will be doing more flying than in PS1, so I'd imagine pilots would have to plot their runs in order to not be shot out of the sky.

[Stardouser]

Originally Posted by Alduron

They should be able to see infantry on the radar only when target is spotted by a teammate. Largely for the role of close air support.

You're missing a lot of senses in games, and it's much easier to flag the enemy on the pilots map than it is to guide him there with long-winded instructions.

It's not an instant kill if an enemy is on the pilots minimap. It almost seems like some of the people above think that rockets and bullets magically one-shot people that are on the minimap. Still takes time/skill to maneuver into position and fire. It looks like aircraft will be doing more flying than in PS1, so I'd imagine pilots would have to plot their runs in order to not be shot out of the sky.

Actually, you have a point. Minimap sighting doesn't make an instant kill...a more important question is, IF there is 3D spotting in the game for infantry, should aircraft be able to see 3D spots of infantry, because that WILL make for more instant kills? Considering that there shouldn't be 3D spotting at all, that goes double for aircraft.

NOTE: In the event infantry 3D spotting is squad only(a reasonable compromise), then in that event, there should still be no ability for aircraft to see 3D spots. Squads should be able to place static 3D air support request markers, and that's all.

[Mezorin]

Any unit should see another unit's "spots" or what ever else, as that's sort of the point to having coordination in a game. Should planes have the ability to "motion sense"? If they sacrifice the missile slot for a radar scout suite, sure, why not? The guys who can see/spot ground troops will be food for the guys who specialize purely in air to air combat anyways. Remember what Higby said: every load out will mean sacrificing something.

We all know how much air cav dominated everything else in PS1, but that likely won't be the case this time around as anyone can just swap out a heavy assault load out, or slap an AA turret on their tank. If you are getting one sided aircav farmed it will not be because you had a lack of reliable things that could shoot planes, it will be because you didn't use them.

[Stardouser]

Originally Posted by Mezorin

Any unit should see another unit's "spots" or what ever else, as that's sort of the point to having coordination in a game. Should planes have the ability to "motion sense"? If they sacrifice the missile slot for a radar scout suite, sure, why not? The guys who can see/spot ground troops will be food for the guys who specialize purely in air to air combat anyways. Remember what Higby said: every load out will mean sacrificing something.

We all know how much air cav dominated everything else in PS1, but that likely won't be the case this time around as anyone can just swap out a heavy assault load out, or slap an AA turret on their tank. If you are getting one sided aircav farmed it will not be because you had a lack of reliable things that could shoot planes, it will be because you didn't use them.

When 1 person can spot for 600, it's not coordination, it's zerging. It's an extreme force multiplier that allows a reward to be reaped that's far beyond any skill, planning, or situational awareness that was sown. And simple line of sight radar is even worse. That's not even spotting.

I don't understand the point of having a large scale game if things like this are going to undo it all, destroy stealth, etc.

[Crator]

Originally Posted by Stardouser

When 1 person can spot for 600, it's not coordination, it's zerging. It's an extreme force multiplier that allows a reward to be reaped that's far beyond any skill, planning, or situational awareness that was sown. And simple line of sight radar is even worse. That's not even spotting.

I don't understand the point of having a large scale game if things like this are going to undo it all, destroy stealth, etc.

Ya, that was a bit OP the way he described it. But what about having a spot mechanic so the infantry can click on the target and the radar shows the target for a short time. It wouldn't track the target though. The spotter would have to re-target to change the loc of the spot on the radar.

The mosqituo ability was cool and I think should be kept. But what about giving a UAV ability too?

[Alduron]

Originally Posted by Stardouser

Actually, you have a point. Minimap sighting doesn't make an instant kill...a more important question is, IF there is 3D spotting in the game for infantry, should aircraft be able to see 3D spots of infantry, because that WILL make for more instant kills? Considering that there shouldn't be 3D spotting at all, that goes double for aircraft.

NOTE: In the event infantry 3D spotting is squad only(a reasonable compromise), then in that event, there should still be no ability for aircraft to see 3D spots. Squads should be able to place static 3D air support request markers, and that's all.

I'm on the fence about spotting from the air. I don't mind vehicles that don't have weapons spotting (or using some kind of drone to spot) but a weapons platform should not be able to use spotting in order to track a target it chooses.

I'm largely in favor for a close air support request system. Maybe a flashing marker of some sort (IR) that can be thrown/launched from grenade tube. You'd toss/launch it around the target and the friendly aircraft in the area would see the marker and focus attacks around that area. It would be dependent on skill, aircraft can't mark, and you can still call in air support outside your squad (which is helpful if there is a squad/outfit specializing in air support).

[Yutty]

i'd be ok if this was one choice from the different upgrades to choose for. So if they got sensors they lack in something else.

[Atheosim]

Firstly, infantry farming has already been powerfully nerfed by making hovering in an aircraft extremely dangerous and difficult. Secondly, and as a result of this, it will be much more difficult to effectively engage infantry. Thirdly we don't even know how well aircav weaponry will function against infantry.

[Whalenator]

Guys, are we paying any attention here?
Planetside 2's population density will be at least twice that of a poplocked con in early Planetside (if not more).

If you find yourself as a handful of infantry facing an aircraft that's stupid enough to sit there and hover, the aircraft's going to get shot down by one of the 665 teammates near to you.

I think radar = yes, with platoon-wide data sharing.

[Crator]

I'm voting yes. With same restrictions that PS1 had in regards to radar mechanics.

[Malorn]

I think this poll is a bit misleading/uninformative because we don't clearly know how spotting and radar works in PS2 and it appears to be a poll in the context of PS1.

We know a radar upgrade for some vehicles exists as a utility slot (tradeoff would be flares or safe-bail or other similar thing), and in PS2 that may very well be an auto-spotting mechanism for anything under the radar's effects, and it might have the same restrictions that the mosquito had in PS1. Due to different flight mechanics and a cockpit blocking view of stuff directly below the aircraft it could quite easily be balanced.

So then the question is does anything at all show up on your radar that is hostile if it is not spotted?

Do radar-like mechanics auto-spot?

If the answer is yes to both of those then there's no need for aircraft minimap to be any different from any other minimap.

I don't think anything hostile should show up on any radar that is not ether spotted or within range of a vehicle with radar/auto-spot functionality. If someone has spotted the infantry, or the aircraft has a radar utility upgrade (like the old mosquito), then absolutely it should show up. Someone spotted it, the pilot should receive that information.

[Erendil]

Originally Posted by Malorn

I think this poll is a bit misleading/uninformative because we don't clearly know how spotting and radar works in PS2 and it appears to be a poll in the context of PS1.

We know a radar upgrade for some vehicles exists as a utility slot (tradeoff would be flares or safe-bail or other similar thing), and in PS2 that may very well be an auto-spotting mechanism for anything under the radar's effects, and it might have the same restrictions that the mosquito had in PS1. Due to different flight mechanics and a cockpit blocking view of stuff directly below the aircraft it could quite easily be balanced.

So then the question is does anything at all show up on your radar that is hostile if it is not spotted?

Do radar-like mechanics auto-spot?

If the answer is yes to both of those then there's no need for aircraft minimap to be any different from any other minimap.

I don't think anything hostile should show up on any radar that is not ether spotted or within range of a vehicle with radar/auto-spot functionality. If someone has spotted the infantry, or the aircraft has a radar utility upgrade (like the old mosquito), then absolutely it should show up. Someone spotted it, the pilot should receive that information.

Pretty much this.

Personally I'm fine w/ these mechanics from PS1:

• Automatic 2D (minimap) spotting is shared by all members of your platoon; so if one member detects an enemy, the whole platoon sees it on the minimap so long as it's actively detected (so if it's still, quiet, and out of direct LOS it disappears from the minimap)
• Short-range vehicle/deployable-based detection systems (e.g. - Mossie Overflight Detection, Motion Sensors) gives automatic 2D spotting for everyone in the Empire, and it should detect any infantry moving or otherwise making noise
• Enemy units not seen or heard by members of your platoon don't show up on the minimap unless picked up by short-range vehicle/deployable detection systems
• There should be some way to block and/or not be detected by short-range vehicle/deployed systems. Not sure about 2D spotting tho (except maybe for cloakers)

IMO what we normally refer to as "RADAR" really isn't radar. It's more an interconnected communication/navigation/Command&Control system like a glorified Land Warrior system used by the US Army. People show up on the minimap when they're actually seen or heard by platoon members' bare senses and not just by an electronic detection system. Plus waypoints, floorplans, friendly deployables, etc are all marked as well. As such, any information shown on one player's minimap should be shared by all platoon members regardless of whether or not they are in a vehicle.

That said, people here have also asked for long-range RADAR systems for aircraft to be included in the game, like from an AWACS system. Something like that would most likely work differently than typical 2D spotting, and such systems should not pick up enemy infantry (except maybe MAXes). In fact, IMO no methods of detection that have a range longer than the size of the minimap should be able to pick up infantry, including such things as Reveals (unless it's really short range in PS2), 3D spotting done by platoon members outside of your minimap range, etc.


Oh, and as a side note for you old skool (read: pre-BFR) PS1 vets out there: Sometime in mid-2004 (I think), the Mossie's overflight detection was made active at all times, regardless of how fast it was going. Just thought I'd point that out since a couple ppl in this thread were under the impression it still worked only at low speeds. And IMO, for gameplay purposes I would classify the PS1 Mossie's overflight detection as something other than radar as well due to its extremely short range. More like an enhance motion/sound detection system.

[Kipper]

Radar != Minimap. Minimap blobs are blobs in your line of sight or that have been spotted by friendlies (this is usally how it goes, at least).

Radar is a method of spotting troops (friendly AND enemy) that you can't see visually.

Airborne radar in smaller aircraft is more often restricted to, or focussed on a cone that projects out of the front of the aircraft to help spot and lock targets on the approach, and its down to eyeballs, wingmen, and other aids to spot things coming in behind. (Larger aircraft or specialised AWACS obviously have a much wider view, but they don't really engage directly).

I'd like to see some form of approach/frontal radar on the fighters to assist with lining up attacks - by the time you can see something, it may be too late to line up an attack with rockets (especially if you're using speed as a defence). You still wouldn't be able to relay that information back to anyone except perhaps other air units in your squad.

A more full field of view radar would be an interesting thing to add to the galaxy as a AWACS / eye-in-the-sky for all the benefits and strategy thats been discussed elsewhere.

Adding it to the smaller aircraft could be do-able too, but it would be at the cost of offensive armament - a bit like the spotter planes in WWI & WWII, often they were fighters because they had speed, and they had their guns replaced with cameras and in many cases, armour was removed to save weight to gain speed and/or range.