looting "makes it alot more of a balance nightmare" - Page 3

CutterJohn · 2011-07-10, 07:17 PM

They had uses. They were not very powerful. I believe they may be the weakest grenades I've ever seen in a game.

Forsaken One · 2011-07-10, 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by Volw

PS1 has 20k subscribers (and that's a very optimistic number) and they would make a huge mistake to listen to community that naturally will be opposed to any and all changes. That is unless they want to sell more than 50k copies.

you seem to forget Planetsides lack of advertising. I for one didn't even knew Planetside EXISTed till the reserves and the talk around it.

I seriously bet if it had WoW advertising when it first came out not only would more people have got the game but sony might not have screwed it up/moved devs away from it do to the mass influx of people it would have had.

Bags · 2011-07-10, 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

They had uses. They were not very powerful. I believe they may be the weakest grenades I've ever seen in a game.

AOE spam shouldn't be strong.

Rbstr · 2011-07-10, 07:26 PM

Compared to nearly any other FPS I've played they are less effective (I'm talking frag grenades, not plasma...which could be effective).
They weren't really even that AOE, if they had real range of the damage I could understand, but they didn't. They also take forever to equip then throw. I'venever found them useful.

A frag-nade should be a go to weapon for people-behind-things. And a single one with a good throw should damn near kill them dead. It's critical anti-camping balance. But they get too powerful when you've got a dozen...that's why you limit it to a couple.
Then you can't spam them.

2coolforu · 2011-07-10, 07:30 PM

Yeah but you have a problem, It's not unknown to have 150 people having a fight in a base hold, that means you have optimistically 150 frag grenades to be thrown every respawn cycle. If they kill in one hit that's some immense douchebaggery to be had, grenades in planetside were not meant to be a main weapon. They were meant to soft, en enemies and drive them out of camping spots which is a job they filled perfectly.

CutterJohn · 2011-07-10, 07:30 PM

Originally Posted by Bags

AOE spam shouldn't be strong.

Indeed. And I doubt you will be able to in PS2, allowing them to be strong.

Originally Posted by 2coolforu

Yeah but you have a problem, It's not unknown to have 150 people having a fight in a base hold, that means you have optimistically 150 frag grenades to be thrown every respawn cycle. If they kill in one hit that's some immense douchebaggery to be had, grenades in planetside were not meant to be a main weapon. They were meant to soft, en enemies and drive them out of camping spots which is a job they filled perfectly.

Those 150 grunts also have 150 guns, and 15,000 rounds of ammo, potentially killing 1000 grunts. Outrageous!

Yeah, I get killed by grenades in games where they are instakill. But not even close to 100% of the time they are thrown at me. Stay sharp. Move out of the way. Most don't even get thrown, since you die before a situation one is useful arises.

I concede that they could not be explode on impact if they were that powerful.

For my money, it would be better to have 1 or 2 powerful grenades instead of potentially an entire backpack of duds.

Forsaken One · 2011-07-10, 07:34 PM

I would love to see anti-kill grenades.
Take a look at S.W.A.T. 4 you had sting,flash and gas grenades. NO frag/death nades.
BF2:SF the gas nades.
BF2142: EMP is a semi flash nade.

I think this would be good things to add to PS2. as well as Fire. think about it. doing bombing runs where you use Area-of-Denial napalm. instead of insta kill bombs. flash banging then clearing an enemy out. or gas nades to try and force them to choose to walk through it losing the ability to aim/their view is druged etc.

Bags · 2011-07-10, 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by Rbstr

Compared to nearly any other FPS I've played they are less effective (I'm talking frag grenades, not plasma...which could be effective).
They weren't really even that AOE, if they had real range of the damage I could understand, but they didn't. They also take forever to equip then throw. I'venever found them useful.

A frag-nade should be a go to weapon for people-behind-things. And a single one with a good throw should damn near kill them dead. It's critical anti-camping balance. But they get too powerful when you've got a dozen...that's why you limit it to a couple.
Then you can't spam them.

If you hit anyone with any bit of a plasma grenade the damage would be enough to ensure you have the upper hand in accuracy. Plasma grenades were far too strong.

Rbstr · 2011-07-10, 07:45 PM

Originally Posted by 2coolforu

Yeah but you have a problem, It's not unknown to have 150 people having a fight in a base hold, that means you have optimistically 150 frag grenades to be thrown every respawn cycle. If they kill in one hit that's some immense douchebaggery to be had, grenades in planetside were not meant to be a main weapon. They were meant to soft, en enemies and drive them out of camping spots which is a job they filled perfectly.

Yeah, that is a problem. But you'll note I didn't advocate for a one hit kill or even that everyone should have them. "They be nading 'erybody out here" isn't what anyone wants.

Bags: Yeah, part of that is planetside's fps mechanics are crap. Like catching fire for sustained periods, losing accuracy with every tick combined with lol-probability COF and not having a way to put yourself out.

Volw · 2011-07-10, 07:49 PM

How about Love Grenades - the affected rip their armor off and begin humping next persons leg.

Or Justin Bieber Granade - Justins 'vocal' causes the affected to try to cover their ears. 20% chance to commit suicide.

Rbstr · 2011-07-10, 07:50 PM

Learn to love the Bieber Fever.

2coolforu · 2011-07-10, 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

Indeed. And I doubt you will be able to in PS2, allowing them to be strong.

Those 150 grunts also have 150 guns, and 15,000 rounds of ammo, potentially killing 1000 grunts. Outrageous!

Yeah, I get killed by grenades in games where they are instakill. But not even close to 100% of the time they are thrown at me. Stay sharp. Move out of the way. Most don't even get thrown, since you die before a situation one is useful arises.

I concede that they could not be explode on impact if they were that powerful.

For my money, it would be better to have 1 or 2 powerful grenades instead of potentially an entire backpack of duds.

Yeah but that's just a total non-sequitur, play any modern FPS like CoD and witness the grenade abuse that results from people carrying merely one grenade. The indoors of bases are far more cramped and populated than any CoD map, throw grenades into that and imagine the clusterfuck that would result.

But obviously in CoD I can carry 210 rounds of ammunition for my AK which is enough to kill 100 people so HAXXX!!!!!!! NERF!!!!. The idea is that the one grenade can probably give you a kill far more easily than the rifle as you can throw it at the vague area in which the defense are an get a kill. Same with CoD you can blindly chuck 'nades here there and everywhere and get a kill, Planetsides 'nades actually filled their purpose effectively without the cheap instadeath.

The argument that 1-2 superpowerful nades is better than 20 moderately powerful is equivalent to saying that we should have supressors with 1 shot that insta-gibs because it's more efficient. Balance matters too....

SKYeXile · 2011-07-10, 07:57 PM

I get where matt is coming from. but i still agree afew people rolling around as VS with MCGs or jacks isnot a gamebreaker.

what they mean its hard to balance is, planetside always went for a starcraft sort of balance to it, while an empire may have a specific advntage with one gun, they makup for it with their weakness in another.

For example:

NC is strongest at close range, as such they are on of the best empires for indoor fighting with the scatt max and jackhammer, but they're not as good on the field, they have the phoenix for AV which makes whem weak to air, combined with the sparrow who is really only good at long open ranges. but to kill a hponic user as infantry you need to get in close, where they will easily mow you down with high powered vanguard shells and gauss rifles.

The TR is best on the field, they have long range weapons and their AV provides good decent air and vehcile cover, while the burster is a decent max for aircover, i really think the TR take the VSs role as most versitle since the MCG is still good at closer ranges.

The VS, have strong AV with the magrider and lancer and strong AA with the starfire, but are weaker indoors and lack a decent AI gun on the mag, this is madeup with the aroua though, and the strong AV is madeup with lack of highpowered gold ammo.

you can kinda see what they were going for, each empire has its strengths and weaknesses...but i think they still failed.

Bags · 2011-07-10, 07:58 PM

Don't want enemies using your guns? don't let 'em kill ya ;p

Coyote · 2011-07-10, 08:07 PM

The inventory system is something I've always enjoyed. I decide my kit, I pick what I want and leave what I don't. I can choose to take a risk and only bring 1 medikit, but more ammo/grenades, or I can play it safe for the long haul. It's up to ME to decide what I'M wearing, and that is something more video games need to adapt. I'm disappointed in hearing the inventory system is going the way of the dodo, but I never really liked having to manage my inventory mid-firefight to replace spent grenades or switch over to a medkit. So this is something that "we will have to see" before I can make a full nay or yay judgement. Right now I'm leaning on Nay for this. Now, this topic went off and started talking about Grenades and knives and stuff. So here.

Grenades as a whole are something that you should be required to switch too and then lobbed. Insta-toss grenades (and insta-stab knives(and even 1-2 second insta-stab knives)) are things that make me cringe.

Planetside is not the most realistic game in the world, yes. But simple mechanics need to be followed. I have an extremely hard time believing that someone runs around with a frag grenade and a knife in one hand and their gun in the other at all times. Even this "well the 1-2-4 second delay between lob/stab is you taking it out" is bull. You need to move your hand to the pouch that has your grenade, then open that pouch, then put both hands firmly on the grenade, arm it, and throw it with your good, throwing hand. This goes for Melee as well. You better be forced to switch to grenades/knives in PS2 like in PS1. Also. As someone said before. 333 vs 333 vs 333 on one continent (or something like that), lets say half of them are infantry. That means there are at least 500 grunts out there with grenades. It is NOT hard to imagine a squad of 20 guys throwing grenades at other squads of 20 guys in tight corridors. Grenades would be immensely overpowered as far as game balance if they started becoming true to life. Not because of the individual grenade, but that individual grenades 30-40 other buddies going with him at one time.

Grenades should not do immense amounts of damage, I'm quite happy with them now. Do you see how much armor we are wearing? Like really. Rexo's and MAXs are essentially futuristic EOD suits . Unless you're in your PJ's you are in enough armor to save you from most damage, and the Agile even has decent enough plating that shrap shouldn't really kill you

Knives. just throwing this out there, in general, Knives are actually really terribad killing devices in legitimate situations. From the experience of a firefighter/emt. I can tell you that most knife wounds I see are superficial at best, rarely do we get a full stabbing/throat slitting/lung puncture and or other Life threatening injury. I can only imagine trying to slit someone's throat in Planetside wearing all of my kit, gun, armor, etc, and getting through someone elses kit, armor, gun, etc and actually slicing their jugular or puncturing a lung/heart or hitting the spine. And upon retrospect, a chest wound would be even harder because in planetside we really, really love our breastplates.

I've never understood video game melee systems doing immense damage for swinging something that looks sharp in someones general direction. I understand the mechanics are impossible to replicate in game space, and since close quarter hand-to-hand fighting will probably never make a real appearance in video games it has to be simplified. But any sort of 1-hit knife kill will do the game no justice.