Israel

Vreki · 2012-07-11, 12:19 PM

I remember a novel by Tom Clancy where the Palestinians got "smart" and started to use Gandhi tactics. That would be pretty devastating for Israels moral position, but I don't see it happening.

On the other hand, the settlements are preventing Israel from being considered the good guy instead of the lesser evil. I don't see what they expect to gain from this, but I heard that internal politic battles in Israel are pretty vicious too.

So status quo forever, or at least until it all ends in mushroom clouds.

Warborn · 2012-07-11, 12:47 PM

Israel is currently engaged in apartheid against the Palestinians and has left a mountain of civilians behind it in its pursuit of retaliating against Hamas or whoever. Or, hell, even in simply keeping the Palestinians repressed it often results to lethal force without any real provocation (see: the Gaza flotilla massacre). On the other hand, terrorists themselves have killed Israeli civilians via suicide bombings and rocket attacks. Not to mention the previous Arab-Israeli conflicts wherein the neighboring Arab countries made their best attempt at wiping out Israel.

But, ultimately my opinion is that Israel is more to blame than the Palestinians. Israel is doing everything they can to keep the Palestinians in a state of poverty and continues to build more and more illegal settlements beyond their previously agreed upon territorial restrictions. It is hard to see Israel as the victim in this when the United States will do essentially anything to keep Israel from being held accountable for its human rights/international law violations, and makes sure the IDF has the most potent weapons at its disposal.

As for Iran, I don't like theocracies anymore than the next guy, but considering that Iran exists on the same planet as the United States I find it perfectly reasonable that they would want to pursue nuclear weapons. When Iran's neighbors were invaded so readily and torn apart by the US and its allies, what country in their right mind wouldn't want to have nukes to ward off potential attacks?

I think, given enough time, Iran will outgrow its Ayatollahs and their repressive regimes. I don't think they are in the market for nuclear war. I would be very disappointed if Israel and Iran went to war over this issue.

MightyMan · 2012-07-11, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by Warborn

Israel is currently engaged in apartheid against the Palestinians and has left a mountain of civilians behind it in its pursuit of retaliating against Hamas or whoever. Or, hell, even in simply keeping the Palestinians repressed it often results to lethal force without any real provocation (see: the Gaza flotilla massacre). On the other hand, terrorists themselves have killed Israeli civilians via suicide bombings and rocket attacks. Not to mention the previous Arab-Israeli conflicts wherein the neighboring Arab countries made their best attempt at wiping out Israel.

But, ultimately my opinion is that Israel is more to blame than the Palestinians. Israel is doing everything they can to keep the Palestinians in a state of poverty and continues to build more and more illegal settlements beyond their previously agreed upon territorial restrictions. It is hard to see Israel as the victim in this when the United States will do essentially anything to keep Israel from being held accountable for its human rights/international law violations, and makes sure the IDF has the most potent weapons at its disposal.

As for Iran, I don't like theocracies anymore than the next guy, but considering that Iran exists on the same planet as the United States I find it perfectly reasonable that they would want to pursue nuclear weapons. When Iran's neighbors were invaded so readily and torn apart by the US and its allies, what country in their right mind wouldn't want to have nukes to ward off potential attacks?

I think, given enough time, Iran will outgrow its Ayatollahs and their repressive regimes. I don't think they are in the market for nuclear war. I would be very disappointed if Israel and Iran went to war over this issue.

"keeping the Palestinians repressed"
Sight, You see: The media focuses only on the bad things Israel does, usually without confirming their facts.
Well lets see. Palestinians are citizens of Israel. They have all the rights that a normal Israeli citizen has. They can vote in the elections, they CAN BE elected into the government and they get full education, funded by the Israeli government.
The thing that you are talking about are Palestinians from the Gaza strip.
Why is it different? Because they are not repressed by the Israeli government, they are repressed by others.
You see, the only thing Israel can control in those territories is what is exported and imported to them. That does not mean "you get 1 bread loaf a month" it means Israel checks what is imported/exported in there in case there are any guns or rockets in there, and prevents those ONLY if there are any guns or rockets in there.
Now the Gaza strip is under the control of another body called the HAMAS.
Other parts of those territories are under the control of a body called the "Palestinian national authority".
Both are almost completely autonomous, the first one wanting to kill us all, the second funded by Israel, and does every thing possible to fart as loudly and as smelly as possible in our face.
Long story short, the repressed Palestinians are not repressed by Israel, mostly because it cannot repress them.
If yo want to know who represses them feel free to ask.

Yet again, sigh: "the Gaza flotilla massacre"
No, erase the massacre part and then you will be right.
So. The Gaza flotilla were a "a group of piece makers" who illegally crossed Israel's borders, while rejecting Israel's demand check the cargo of the ship. Lets analyse this; There was no promise the cargo of the ship held food and humanitarian supplies, it could just as well hold weapons, bombs, terrorists and babies to sacrifice for Satan (yes this is cynicism). Also, there is no need to say that illegally crossing the border, is well, illegal.
So Israel sent a squad of soldiers to hijack the ship and send it to be examined in the closest ship port, before the supplies were sent to Palestine and the "piece makers" were sent home. and hijacking is not a wrong thing, because as I stated, they were aggressively breaking international law.
At first, the squad entered the ship with basically PAINTBALL GUNS that shoot rubber bullets that are used to inflict pain, in case of one of the soldiers being attacked but cause no permanent damage in any way.
You see, the second the soldiers landed on the ship from the helicopter, they were attacked by metal poles, axes and any kind of thing you can throw or use as a melee weapon.

To save the soldiers, they have sent reinforcements to the ship, who, this time came with REAL guns guns, because now the "peace makers" were treated as full terrorists and there was no justification not to treat them like that. Notice how 9 passengers out 41 passengers died. Massacre= worth killing everyone and better yet, they were killed ONLY because they attacked the soldiers with the clear objective of harming them. Those who really were peaceful, were not harmed at all.
Long story short Israel could have done it in a better way, but saying that it was a massacre is completely wrong.

Warborn · 2012-07-11, 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by MightyMan

"keeping the Palestinians repressed"
Sight, You see: The media focuses only on the bad things Israel does, usually without confirming their facts.

How about almost straight from the source?

WikiLeaks: Israel aimed to keep Gaza economy on brink of collapse

Israel controls what goes in and out of Gaza and other Palestinian enclaves. They say the goal is to prevent weapons from being sent in, but the reality is that they want to keep the Palestinian areas "'functioning at the lowest level possible consistent with avoiding a humanitarian crisis". Meanwhile, anything the Palestinians or their sympathizers do is met with overwhelming force, up to and including the execution of civilians.

Meanwhile, who're the real victims of violence here? Is this horrible mistreatment of Palestinians and, as I said, apartheid justified because Israel is under grave threat? Well, considering the entire conflict has seen more than 5x as many Palestinian dead as Israeli, including 1620 Palestinian children killed (more than 10x as many Israeli children killed) I'm not sure Israel is the David in this story.

You can't blame this on the media. The numbers don't lie. Settlements are being built beyond agreed-upon boundaries, the outright repression of the Palestinians is admitted to, and there is a tremendous body count of dead civilians at the feet of the side with the tanks and attack helicopters. The only reason there aren't sanctions against Israel for its behaviour is because it would be political suicide for American politicians to ever suggest Israel be brought to task for its activities. So the US vetoes anything anyone ever does which is even remotely critical of the UN, and governments like my own in Canada who want nothing more than to fellate the American government for eternity follow suit and embarrass us all.

MightyMan · 2012-07-11, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by Warborn

How about almost straight from the source?

WikiLeaks: Israel aimed to keep Gaza economy on brink of collapse

Israel controls what goes in and out of Gaza and other Palestinian enclaves. They say the goal is to prevent weapons from being sent in, but the reality is that they want to keep the Palestinian areas "'functioning at the lowest level possible consistent with avoiding a humanitarian crisis". Meanwhile, anything the Palestinians or their sympathizers do is met with overwhelming force, up to and including the execution of civilians.

Meanwhile, who're the real victims of violence here? Is this horrible mistreatment of Palestinians and, as I said, apartheid justified because Israel is under grave threat? Well, considering the entire conflict has seen more than 5x as many Palestinian dead as Israeli, including 1620 Palestinian children killed (more than 10x as many Israeli children killed) I'm not sure Israel is the David in this story.

You can't blame this on the media. The numbers don't lie. Settlements are being built beyond agreed-upon boundaries, the outright repression of the Palestinians is admitted to, and there is a tremendous body count of dead civilians at the feet of the side with the tanks and attack helicopters. The only reason there aren't sanctions against Israel for its behaviour is because it would be political suicide for American politicians to ever suggest Israel be brought to task for its activities. So the US vetoes anything anyone ever does which is even remotely critical of the UN, and governments like my own in Canada who want nothing more than to fellate the American government for eternity follow suit and embarrass us all.

So. You know how those facts were pulled out of the ass of pro-palestine idiots in the UN and stuff. For example there was a story last year, when an important ambassador from the UN, tweeted a photo of a 6 years old girl, dead and covered in blood, claiming it is the work of Israel. Immediately, everyone started shouting and crying "Israel fuck you".
But whoopsy daisy, someone was smart enough to search that picture in tineye, and it appeared that it was actually a pic of a girl who died after FALLING FROM A SWING. You know where does this ambassador work now after the incident? IN THE UN. Unlike what you may think, many of those who are in charge of finding those statistics are also pro-palestinian and are very much against Israel, which means most of those statistics are faked to present Palestine as a baby angel and Israel as jack the ripper.
Now why is it not possible for 1620 children to be murdered by the IDF?
1. The IDF never EVER attacks peaceful civilians or civilian homes. When homes WERE attacked was when terrorists reinforced in them.
2. THAT'S IT
If children were killed, then it was because of them having a bomb attached to them, or (yes yes) as an accident, which is like maybe 3 after 60 years of a constant warfare.
And your "source", it is a link to wikipedia that says nothing about dead children.
"Israel aimed to keep Gaza economy on brink of collapse": I you would actually be there, you will see that they live better then in most of the muslim countries. This I have seen with my own eyes.

Originally Posted by Malorn

I think Israel's pretty awesome. It's an island of modern society sitting in a sea of culture that is about 600 years behind the rest of the world.

Yey, your not trying to kill me with aggressive arguments, that's refreshing

Originally Posted by Vash02

You could also say that the Palestinians put down their weapons and then there was no Palestine.
Why should Palestinians put down their weapons to lose what little they have left?

What I said had nothing to do with palestine, but with the countries that surround Israel.
If palaetine had no weapons THERE WOULD BE PALESTINE, mostly because that is situation right now. Israel could have easily claimed it as it's territory 60 years ago. Instead it gave it the "Palestinian national authority".

Originally Posted by Pella

Think of it as if the Chinese moved 1b people into north America and claimed that this was there land.

How would you feel and most importantly how would you react?. And while trying not to play the "my army is bigger than yours card". The Chinese could look after themselves.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

SO: The territory of Israel was given by the UN (well, another international body that the UN was later replaced by the UN and had the same authority) to Britain, after WW1 to be divided into two countries, one Palestinian and the other- Israeli. Britain took this because they thought there is oil sources in this territory, but after they understood they were wrong they treated it as a big burden, and decreased their support and authority over the territory.
Because of that, many disputes started between **** and palestines, that were not solved by Britain (they'r job was to keep peace in the territories).
Those disputes grew bigger and bigger, and more violent and aggressive as time passed and eventually carried over to the day of Israel's declaration, when the new Israeli territories were attacked by pretty much everyone, from the Palestinians to Egypt. To everyone's surprise, Israel did not only win the war, but also captured the new Palestinian country territories, most of which are today under the control of a completely autonomous body called the "Palestinian national authority".
Thus, Israeli territories are completely legal, and the Palestinians have their own territories too.

Originally Posted by Saifoda

Well most of what needs to be said in here has been said already so far. The one thing I would like to add though is that more frequently (not always) than not it is the Palestinian groups (PLO etc...) which refuse to have proper talks with Israel. Many of their "preconditions" are simply absurd -- the complete annihilation of Israel, for example...

"Well most of what needs to be said in here has been said already so far."
As the forum section's name implies, this is a debate, it's not how it works, sadly considering 90% of the people here are trying to cut my balls off.

Saifoda · 2012-07-11, 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by MightyMan

...
"Well most of what needs to be said in here has been said already so far."
As the forum section's name implies, this is a debate, it's not how it works, sadly considering 90% of the people here are trying to cut my balls off.

You seem to be doing just fine by yourself

As for Warborn's (I think it was) statistics of Israeli's killing 5x as many children as palestinians, that is an extremely short sighted notation and the understanding of it doesn't take into account any other variables. For example, THEY WERE USED AS HUMAN SHIELDS.

Oh but I digress; I forgot the topic here was about how completely fucked up Israel is. Let me jump on the bandwagon...

Warborn · 2012-07-11, 06:34 PM

Originally Posted by MightyMan

So. You know how those facts were pulled out of the ass of pro-palestine idiots in the UN and stuff.

I'm not going to get into this with you. You have made up your mind, that is clear to me, and I know there isn't any source I could name which voices criticism of Israel that you'd accept.

But you wanted it, so here you go. The conservatives in Western nations in general think it's okay for Israel to kill and abuse as many Palestinians as they want. The people who aren't conservatives generally think Palestinians are also people and therefore murdering them or violating their human rights is "a bad thing". So there you go. That's it in a nutshell. Same as everything else, there's a certain segment of our populations which are 100% ideology, and will support Israel unequivocally, primarily because they hate Muslims.

Figment · 2012-07-11, 06:37 PM

Originally Posted by Warborn

primarily because they feel guilty about the holocaust and can't see **** as anything other than victims.

EDITED quote (sorry, forgot to mention the edit

).

Plus they're a culture closer to Christian culture than islam due to the wars between the two.

That said, nobody who criticizes Israel here thinks you're wrong when you say Hamas is pure inbred indoctrinating evil and should probably be removed with a rusty scalpel. Just that people expect a western nation to apply civilian casualty restricting tactics. Something nigh impossible when fighting civilian militants who both deliberately and through incapacity and lack of organization and means can't really do any different than fight a guerrilla from within their towns. And yes, most people put almost equal blame on both parties for civilian casualties then, but it's expected from Hamas because they are expected to have lower standards. It's not "fair", but then, when was war fair? People don't expect the easy way out for Israel, which would have been to deport them all as that would have been doing what Germany did to the **** and wouldn't be accepted.

Perhaps it just wasn't a very thoughtout idea to unilaterally declare the Jewish state of Israel back in 1948...

Btw, I'd imagine most people think of the PLO as the IRA: pretty much reformed and beaten into submission with some rogue elements left. Israelis aren't quite as hated as Hamas. But that doesn't mean you can't be critical of Israel, especially if you project western standards on them and expect them to uphold it. Nobody expects anything from a third rate terrorist organization and nobody wishes their methods well. That doesn't mean they can't sympathise with an underdog, which is natural to humans too.

ETA is probably considered to have better ethics than Hamas and that's telling!

MightyMan · 2012-07-12, 02:18 AM

Originally Posted by Warborn

I'm not going to get into this with you. You have made up your mind, that is clear to me, and I know there isn't any source I could name which voices criticism of Israel that you'd accept.

But you wanted it, so here you go. The conservatives in Western nations in general think it's okay for Israel to kill and abuse as many Palestinians as they want. The people who aren't conservatives generally think Palestinians are also people and therefore murdering them or violating their human rights is "a bad thing". So there you go. That's it in a nutshell. Same as everything else, there's a certain segment of our populations which are 100% ideology, and will support Israel unequivocally, primarily because they hate Muslims.

THIS IS A DEBATE, I am supposed to counter your arguments, and you are supposed to counter mine. Being offended by what I say or whatever, is just stupid. The debate goes on until, one proves that the other is wrong, and it is not personal, that is all.
Anyway, back to the debate:
"Israel to kill and abuse as many Palestinians as they want":
As I have already said. It is not true. You DO NOT know what happens here each time a Palestinian is ACTUALLY dies because of the IDF. Shitstorms everywhere in the local media and lots of Israeli people protesting and stupid things like that. OK. Saying that Israel murders Palestinians or abuses them is absurd. The Palestinians who live in what you would call "legal" Israeli territories are given full israeli citizenship, full rights and have representatives in the government. Those that live in "illegal" territories, are under their own rule. Israel, NEVER attacks Palestinians UNLESS they have weapons on their hands, or bombs attached to them.
They are not abused. in any way. At all. They are under their own rule, and Israel just can't abuse them in any way because of that. It is like if you said the the USA does not give citizenship and rights to people who live in France.
It just makes no sense.

Originally Posted by Neurotoxin

Wow, this fascist has so much pro-Zionist rhetoric that it is hard to address it all.

Why is your avatar a hammer, star, and sickle, anyhow? You are no Jewish communist.

Tell ya what: Go to Jerusalem, see the single-file cages Palestinians are corralled into to get through to Jerusalem, IF they are let through. You won't have the same treatment, you can freely enter Jerusalem. Then keep going, all the way into Palestinian territory. Whip out a camera, take a nice picture of an IDF poster, make sure a soldier sees you. Tell us the results, what you see, how you were treated, etc. If you are shot dead, make sure a relative can come back and post your obituary for us.

"Why is your avatar a hammer, star, and sickle, anyhow? You are no Jewish communist. "
1. This is an avatar, and it nothing with me being Jewish, but with my other internet nickname- the mighty comrade.
2. You're no gorilla in a space suit. Yeh you can see how stupid this argument is -_-.

The other things you said- it is so idiotic, I can't even believe people still believe in that.
SO- you see, Palestinians, yes yes, they are given full rights, FULL CITIZEN RIGHTS, they can go to any place in Israel, without any kind of restriction, soldiers NEVER shoot peaceful Palestinians, and those are allowed freely into both Jewish religious places, and Islamic. Unlike you may think, there is full religious freedom in Israel. Oh and yes I know that from personal experience. My cousin was there, went through PALESTINIAN territories and INTO Jerusalem, she took photos of many things, some of them in front of soldiers, and was not shot even one time. CAN YOU BELIEVE IT?

Originally Posted by Malorn

Got pics of those Jerusalem "cages"?

I have, you know look to your side and you might just see some AIR. Worst cage evar.

MightyMan · 2012-07-11, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by Vreki

I remember a novel by Tom Clancy where the Palestinians got "smart" and started to use Gandhi tactics. That would be pretty devastating for Israels moral position, but I don't see it happening.

On the other hand, the settlements are preventing Israel from being considered the good guy instead of the lesser evil. I don't see what they expect to gain from this, but I heard that internal politic battles in Israel are pretty vicious too.

So status quo forever, or at least until it all ends in mushroom clouds.

Yep. One thing it will not end with is mushroom clouds tough. The "world" is keeping Israel on a very short leash to make sure that no such weapons are in development and that Israel to not engage in wars against other countries.
Well as long there is no war, Israel the others will stay in this "bullshit state" for ever. Hostile Islamic countries will yell "ARGH ISRAEL DIE", Palestine will point a finger at bully-Israel in front of the UN and Israel will try to satisfy everyone but will fail horribly in each case.