Why K:D, Deaths, streaks and other stats are bad, and how PS2 can evolve the genre

Raymac · 2012-03-07, 01:59 PM

Plus K: D ratio is such a ubiquitous tracking stat that it is now as common as ammo. It's a standard feature at this point. I do like the idea of tracking other stats as well and letting the community give more weight to those other stats.

VioletZero · 2012-03-07, 02:01 PM

Just track a variety of stats. Kills and deaths is okay just as long as it isn't the main focus like in other shooters.

But no killstreaks pls.

**Malorn** · 2012-03-07, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by Raymac

Plus K: D ratio is such a ubiquitous tracking stat that it is now as common as ammo. It's a standard feature at this point. I do like the idea of tracking other stats as well and letting the community give more weight to those other stats.

Just because its always been done does not mean its a good idea.

MMORPGs used to have long xp grinds and people expected this. They even had xp loss on death. Modern MMORPGs have evolved and moved away from these things. This is no different. Just because they've done it and it is expected does not mean it is a good feature.

Raymac · 2012-03-07, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by Malorn

Just because its always been done does not mean its a good idea.

MMORPGs used to have long xp grinds and people expected this. They even had xp loss on death. Modern MMORPGs have evolved and moved away from these things. This is no different. Just because they've done it and it is expected does not mean it is a good feature.

I agree with you that there are better stats to track for Planetside, however when people expect a standard feature, that feature better be included, whether or not the elite think it is good.

Using XP loss on death as an example is not a fair comparison because people hated that stuff except for the most hardcore of players. The reason K: D is so common is because soooo many people actually do like it.

MrBloodworth · 2012-03-07, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by Raymac

standard feature

Its a standard features. IN SESSION BASED SHOOTERS WHERE THE WIN CONDITION DOES NOT MATTER.

Ahem.

Planetside is a war game. Empire/squad goals need to take precedence over all.

**Malorn** · 2012-03-07, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by Raymac

I agree with you that there are better stats to track for Planetside, however when people expect a standard feature, that feature better be included, whether or not the elite think it is good.

So what? What happens if they don't include deaths as a tracked stat? You think any significant amount of players will stop playing?

What about all the added enjoyment of everyone else in the game becuase it doesn't degenerate into deathmatch?

Using XP loss on death as an example is not a fair comparison because people hated that stuff except for the most hardcore of players. The reason K: D is so common is because soooo many people actually do like it.

They like it because its always been there and they like to measure their importance.

I'm not saying provide no measurement - I'm saying change it. Change it to something universal that takes many different factors into consideration, not just who can minimize deaths and maximize kills.

PS2 is free to play. I could make a VS character and go off into some remote part of a continent spawn him over and over again, and kill him with my NC character. I could pad the hell out of my K

stat and appear all over a leaderboard. With dominations, kill streaks, etc. If I'm smart about and don't over-do it, nobody would be the wiser. Can't do that with score because diminishing returns is an obvious solution.

Raymac · 2012-03-07, 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by Malorn

So what? What happens if they don't include deaths as a tracked stat? You think any significant amount of players will stop playing?

What about all the added enjoyment of everyone else in the game becuase it doesn't degenerate into deathmatch?

No. Obviously I don't think people will say "It doesn't track K/D? Forget it then." Just like people don't say, "That car doesn't have leather seats? Forget it." However, it is a feature that people expect, and it does get factored into their assessment of the game. Just look at how the press from GDC have praised it.

Also, I think it is pretty ridiculous to infer that Planetside will degenerate into a deathmatch just because k/d is tracked. You know better than that, Malorn.

**Malorn** · 2012-03-07, 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by Raymac

Also, I think it is pretty ridiculous to infer that Planetside will degenerate into a deathmatch just because k/d is tracked. You know better than that, Malorn.

I said its bad for the game and discourages team play. I didn't say the entire game degenerates to deathmatch, but if that's what the devs encourage, that's what people will tend to do.

I say again, just because games did it in the past does not mean it is right for THIS game to do it. This game is very different from other modern shooters. Its time to recognize that and challenge assumptions.

I claim that removal of death stat tracking and promoting score as a stat that can take almost anything into consideration will significantly improve the game by encouraging different and more team-oriented player behaviors and give the developers the power to encourage / discourage specific behaviors and shape the game. I believe this to be an incredibly good thing for the game both long term and short-term.

Do you disagree with that?

Raymac · 2012-03-07, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by Malorn

I didn't say the entire game degenerates to deathmatch, but if that's what the devs encourage, that's what people will tend to do.

Yes you did say that, or rather, as I said, you inferred it.

Originally Posted by Malorn

What about all the added enjoyment of everyone else in the game becuase it doesn't degenerate into deathmatch?

But that is really just a side point and we can move past it.

As to your main point, I do totally 100% agree with you that other stats are much more important to Planetside and should be promoted, and the ideas you have put forward are great ones. However, we can do that without throwing out the K/D stat that nearly every gamer out there comes to expect. Let's not get too elitist now and remember the desires of the proletariat.

Blackwolf · 2012-07-22, 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by Raymac

Plus K: D ratio is such a ubiquitous tracking stat that it is now as common as ammo. It's a standard feature at this point. I do like the idea of tracking other stats as well and letting the community give more weight to those other stats.

I like where this thought is going.

Provide more then just the K/D like healing, repair, revivals, vehicle kills (tracked by individual vehicles), vehicle losses.

PS1 included a break down on pretty much everything you did and put it into a merit system that allowed you to wear your merits with pride even if it was damn near impossible to tell who had what merits on their shoulders at first glance. Their mistake was that they started tying in-game rewards like certain vehicle variants and -cough- vehicles -cough- to earning merits. That was what the certification system was for, and should never have been stepped over.

Going for those merits was actually fun, even if the majority of them involved killing an enemy. The streaks were challenging most of the time and pride was reward enough.