AGN: Community Clash Recording TXR and MERC vs NNG and TGWW

[Rolfski]

Originally Posted by TorinPS

So.. for a competitive air game, you think inexperienced people should be able to compete? If 25% of your allotted players can be allocated to air, you're good. If you can't get 25% of your players either interested in the air game or willing to practice and learn it well, what does that say about the outfit?

Keep in mind that Community Clash is intended for every outfit, not just the esport ones. Knowing that your outfit will be dead in the water on Nexus if you don't sustain at least a wing of BR 100 reverse thrusting ninjas, is not exactly a tempting invite to participate in these Community Clash series.

On a competitive map, air should be a valid tactic but never the only one as now seems to be the case here (although it's a bit early for final conclusions). That's just boring to watch and bad game design. Any tactic needs a counter and atm AA seems too weak on this particular map to be an effective counter.

Every competitive combined arms game (Battlefield) has always had an element of air superiority. Given how important it is to winning conflicts, how can a 'competitive outfit' even consider neglecting it?

Games like Battlefield series only allow for a few vehicles in the game, which prevents all kinds of balancing issues Planetside 2 had from the start.
Vehicle play in this game is just way too different from any other game because of its scale.

If you ask me, an outfit without a competitive air wing is not a competitive outfit. There are plenty of good pilots on all servers, though usually spread out around various outfits, 1 or 2 pilots each. If someone were to want to play competitively, they would need to recruit.

This exactly illustrates why the air game is so broken atm. The skill vs reward balance is completely whacked. If you don't spend 500+ hours into flying, you simply have no place in the air which is ridiculous, even for esports outfits. Knowing that you have to rely on recruiting outside to stay competitive is too much of a threshold, even for them.
It's ok for this game to have an insanely high skill ceiling but it should never result in insanely high rewards like this match painfully made clear.
A top ace 1000+ hours pilot should only be 20% stronger vs a mediocre pilot, not 2000%.

[necrate]

Originally Posted by Rolfski

A top ace 1000+ hours pilot should only be 20% stronger vs a mediocre pilot, not 2000%.

What makes you say that it isn't already like that? 20% is generous given the current state of the game. Saying that you need 500+ hours to be competitive is ridiculous. Don't use such hyperbole when trying to make a serious argument.

Also, without some sort of smart matchmaking system there will always be a significant likelihood of uneven matches in terms of practice and experience. In this case it was a good match and it was almost tied up at one point. That shows that the strategy used by the winning side was not without its glaring flaws.

[Rolfski]

Originally Posted by necrate

What makes you say that it isn't already like that? 20% is generous given the current state of the game. Saying that you need 500+ hours to be competitive is ridiculous. Don't use such hyperbole when trying to make a serious argument.

2000% stronger is just another way of saying that you literally stand no chance, not even a little one as good pilot vs a top ace pilot, which is absolutely true for the current state of the air game.

And yes, you really need hundreds of hours to get to that level. To illustrate, I suggest you watch the channel from a player called MattiAce, who spends a significant part of his time on PTS only to train his skills vs other ace pilots.

In this case it was a good match and it was almost tied up at one point. That shows that the strategy used by the winning side was not without its glaring flaws.

I agree and I think its too early to draw to conclusions already that air is too powerful on that map. I can think of a few counter tactics myself I didn't see TR performing in that mach, but air dominance is for sure something to watch out for.

Originally Posted by TorinPS

And if you nerf air because of the Nexus, then air becomes even more useless in the 'public PS2 world'.

I never suggested air to be nerfed, only for levelling the playing field a bit more so mediocre pilots (which is 80+ % of the player base) can have a fun and meaningful time in the air as well.
The upcoming ESF changes, which forces you to choose between reverse thrusting capability (after burner tanks) vs extra armament, look promising in that regard.

[TorinPS]

Originally Posted by Rolfski

I never suggested air to be nerfed, only for levelling the playing field a bit more so mediocre pilots (which is 80+ % of the player base) can have a fun and meaningful time in the air as well.
The upcoming ESF changes, which forces you to choose between reverse thrusting capability (after burner tanks) vs extra armament, look promising in that regard.

This has been a long-running question: How do you make air more balanced so mediocre pilots can contribute to an air battle filled with top level pilots?

Nobody has an answer. Probably because the answer should be: You can't, because they shouldn't be able to.

What you're suggesting is like saying some friends who fool around and play basketball after work together should be able to have a meaningful and fun time against an NBA all-star team. Nope.

[snafus]

I think you guys are getting a little out of hand trying to use the Nexus fight as an argument for over all aircraft balance in PS2. Fighting on the Nexus is night and day difference then your usual play on live server. And you should not take what happens there as evidence of anythings power in the live game.

But on a second note I would like to propose an idea that could make the Nexus a more enjoyable ground focused fight. I have had the pleasure to participate in two 48VS48 matches on the Nexus and both times the deciding factor of the match is air and air alone. This cannot be the case if we want to have a healthy and competitive future for PS2. No one aspect should hold that much sway over the match.

I wish to propose that we enact a new rule of only allowing one squad of air per team to be active. This is by no means an attempt at watering down the tactical options of the matches but actually giving more. By enacting this one squad of air only teams will have to implement the best squad make ups of LIB to ESF ratios. This will also encourage a more consistent air fight during the match as your platoon will be able to supply you with ESF for the entire match.

The other positive attribute created by this change is simply allowing ground to be more relevant. By forcing teams to only have 12 players airborne you will still have a chance to progress the fight even if you lack Air superiority. Though the air wing will still be a devastating factor in the fight it wont be at the degree of match ending power air has now on the Nexus. I feel this will force more skilled combat from the air wings and allow the ground battles to ensue which will be the key factor in encouraging a growing viewership of Competitive PS2 play.

[necrate]

Originally Posted by snafus

I wish to propose that we enact a new rule of only allowing one squad of air per team to be active. This is by no means an attempt at watering down the tactical options of the matches but actually giving more.

I just wanted to note that this does not make any sense. The same options available with the limitation are also available without it. This makes the new set of options a subset of the old options. Then note that without the limitation you could potentially have one more Liberator than with the limitation. This makes the options available under the proposed limitation a strict subset of the old.

This could be a potential separate ruleset that they could implement for outfits who want stricter rules on force makeups or are looking for a different kind of combat than otherwise possible. I don't know if they would want to make the effort to enforce this rule because it would require many details and plenty of overhead.

[Violin]

Originally Posted by necrate

I just wanted to note that this does not make any sense.....lolwut?

I just wanted to note that what Snafus said made a ton more sense than whatever you just rambled on about.

Hats off to NNG and TGWW for bring home the W for the VS. Looking forward to a chance at a match on the Nexus looks like a blast.

[PredatorFour]

If your a top ace fighter pilot who is willing to put the time in you SHOULD hands down shit on a mediocre pilot who is half arsed at flying his fighter. None argument IMO.



Nexus is interesting as you can have a massive air battle in the skies whilst the ground troops march underneath, i think it will make for some great strategies and fights.

[TorinPS]

Originally Posted by snafus

I wish to propose that we enact a new rule of only allowing one squad of air per team to be active. This is by no means an attempt at watering down the tactical options of the matches but actually giving more. By enacting this one squad of air only teams will have to implement the best squad make ups of LIB to ESF ratios. This will also encourage a more consistent air fight during the match as your platoon will be able to supply you with ESF for the entire match.

I see this as further disadvantaging the side with a lesser skilled air squad. If you are allowed 12 people in the air at any given time, and your 12 people cannot compete, you outright lose the air battle. You don't have the option of putting 24 people in the air to try to counter it, you just lose the air battle. And IMO, 12 people in the air is still more than plenty to handle 48 people on the ground. 1 Liberator is still ample to hold down a spawn when they don't have to worry about air threats. Basically this turns all air vs air battles into strictly a matter of skill and the 'right' air squad loadout. (lib/esf balance) Not that this is particularly bad, it just gives even fewer options to outfits with less experienced air squads.

[snafus]

Originally Posted by TorinPS

I see this as further disadvantaging the side with a lesser skilled air squad. If you are allowed 12 people in the air at any given time, and your 12 people cannot compete, you outright lose the air battle. You don't have the option of putting 24 people in the air to try to counter it, you just lose the air battle. And IMO, 12 people in the air is still more than plenty to handle 48 people on the ground. 1 Liberator is still ample to hold down a spawn when they don't have to worry about air threats. Basically this turns all air vs air battles into strictly a matter of skill and the 'right' air squad loadout. (lib/esf balance) Not that this is particularly bad, it just gives even fewer options to outfits with less experienced air squads.

And that is a fact that cannot be avoided until they fix base design. But by reducing the air wings to one squad it still leaves the ground to have some semblance of a chance to succeed even without air superiority.

Yes a squad of aircraft can still dominate on the nexus, but it brings it down to a point where ground can at least move up on one side of the map if your air focuses A2G. Currently the Nexus is purely decided by air combat. There are no other tactics to win on this map pure and simple.

We as a community need to set a standard to limit the zerg factor of air other wise it will be the only combat to happen at competitive levels. It is completely unacceptable that the infantry or ground fight is the back seat compared to the air fight. We have to find a way to balance this out otherwise you wont get the viewership by simply watching air zergs duke it out for 10 mins. Followed by the winner camping the loser with libs for the remainder of the match.

[Lepalose]

Originally Posted by TorinPS

I see this as further disadvantaging the side with a lesser skilled air squad. If you are allowed 12 people in the air at any given time, and your 12 people cannot compete, you outright lose the air battle. You don't have the option of putting 24 people in the air to try to counter it, you just lose the air battle. And IMO, 12 people in the air is still more than plenty to handle 48 people on the ground. 1 Liberator is still ample to hold down a spawn when they don't have to worry about air threats. Basically this turns all air vs air battles into strictly a matter of skill and the 'right' air squad loadout. (lib/esf balance) Not that this is particularly bad, it just gives even fewer options to outfits with less experienced air squads.

But this explains why it gets out of hand. Pulling 24 aircraft to deal with 12 so that you can dominate the air would work, yes. But then pulling 36 aircraft to deal with 24 is more effective too.

So then why not just put 44 people in aircraft and have 3 infiltrators on the ground to do the ghost capping? Because honestly in the current state, that is a stronger force then actually dedicating any more forces to ground battles.

But some of this is broken mechanics currently on Nexus. When you are not in the base hex of one you own, you cannot spawn back at any other base. That means lots of redeploys to the WG, pulling resources again to get to somewhere new. Oh, and if you don't have the air superiority? Then you are going to be attacked coming out of WG. Galaxies will definitely die, sunderers most likely as well. So your mobility is extremely limited. Combine it with the lack of spawn beacons & squad deploy, it quite simply means that either you control the air or you spend most of your resources trying to get to a location you need to be from WG.

Moreover, because air dominance allows for easier mobility, in combination with this issue with spawning at bases behind you, you cannot set up a defence - that means basically to defend bases like Nexus Secure essentially becomes an attack against your own base.

Further, to answer everyone saying we pulled sporadic AA, I would argue multiple times in both my squad and in another squad did we have people go full AA. Did we have resources for Skyguards & AA MAXes everytime? No, definitely not. AA grounder missile just can't make up the difference against skilled pilots. Indeed, AA ground based units were simply a deterrent against the air, and completely ineffective. But the issue is that while this AA is needed, it is a huge resource pull. This means that if you lose the air, not only have you lost air resources (the most effective resources against fighting air), you also burn all other resources doing deterrence.

To speak of the base design, there is essentially one base (Nexus Omega/Alpha) that largely limits air's effect on the game. All other bases require infantry to move with almost no cover from air from point to point. For example, Bitter Gorge can basically be completely dominated by air as the points are basically exposed to it. Defending becomes less about engaging other infantry forces and more about scrambling to avoid air-to-ground fire on your way to point.

In addition, there is literally no where you can protect sunderers from air at most bases. That means if you do not have air dominance, you get one shot to hold point if attacking.

These reasons stated (poor and limited spawn mechanics, AA as a deterrent for these sized battles, open base & map designs that allow air to dominate ground forces) I believe that my hyperbole of 44 air, 3 infiltrator strategy could actually be viable in the current state of these matches, with the current form of the Nexus, with the balancing of weapons.

Is this a complaint? Well, partially. I love all aspects of PS2 gameplay, and I feel that allowing air to be the only deciding factor in these matches would be poor for highlighting all the other kinds of gameplay that PS2 offers. That said, air battles are epic and air dominance should have an effect on battles on the ground.

Of course, this could flow into a discussion about weapon-platform balance that we could also have, particularly about the multi-purpose role of all aircraft in the game, but I will leave that for another time.

[Rolfski]

Originally Posted by TorinPS

What you're suggesting is like saying some friends who fool around and play basketball after work together should be able to have a meaningful and fun time against an NBA all-star team. Nope.

Actually yes, because these casuals are playing on the same daily basketball field/server as the NBA players in this game. If you let these NBA stars completely destroy every casual that enters the basketball field, then guess what? Casuals will stay away and your basketball game becomes a ghost town, just like air is atm in the game. They designed basketball leagues for a reason you know.

If you design a game where you put casuals/mediocre players in the same environment as uber-skilled hardcore pro's/no-lifers (mind you, not every game does that), than you better come up with mechanics that ensure everybody will have a good time or this game will die out.

Originally Posted by necrate

Because this game is not about single duels, but rather quite the opposite, it makes sense that a group of top pilots could perform as well as a group of good pilots with 20% more numbers.

This is somewhat true. If anything, the current air game has forced players to stick together. On an individual 1 vs 1 level, which is often the case on off-hours, you still won't stand a chance vs a top ace though. There's simply no room for lone-woving any more in the air, which is not good. You hear even top pilots complaining about it.

I would say 30-40 hours of flying (against other pilots! not rocket podding) is sufficient to make you a decent pilot.

Not on my server. I've spend double that amount in my mosquito (fair to say, it includes rocket podding) but the moment I lift off on Miller, some Artorius, Justicia or MattiAce type will instagib me within a minute after arriving on the battlefield, guaranteed. Needless to say, I stopped any serious flying ages ago. Any game that forces you into some boring training (VR/PTS) environment for serious hours in order to have even remotely fun, has design issues. No matter how you look at it.

Originally Posted by snafus

I think you guys are getting a little out of hand trying to use the Nexus fight as an argument for over all aircraft balance in PS2. Fighting on the Nexus is night and day difference then your usual play on live server. And you should not take what happens there as evidence of anythings power in the live game.

I disagree. Like other games, competitive play functions as a microscope for balance issues and PS2 is not any different in this regard.
Nexus so far has painfully shown how broken the air game is (be top ace or be gone) and artificial rules like your proposal might actually end up being necessary to keep the competitive game alive for the time being.

[Aarth]

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Actually yes, because these casuals are playing on the same daily basketball field/server as the NBA players in this game. If you let these NBA stars completely destroy every casual that enters the basketball field, then guess what? Casuals will stay away and your basketball game becomes a ghost town, just like air is atm in the game. They designed basketball leagues for a reason you know.

This is a show match, they didn't align the relative skills perfectly and can't. In order to do that you need an extensive set of matches to show who fits in what leagues. It would be like Das Anfall or Future Crew going up against a similar sized infantry crew, if that crew is mediocre it will be a blow out. We aren't proposing that only a subsection of infantry 12 v 12 are the only amount allowed to fight any any one point on the map are we? The point is 12 top pilots will still blow out 12 semi prepared pilots. We can not force the game to equalize skill between two evenly numbered groups, that more then anything will ruin a game long term.

[Rumblepit]

We knew going in what air dominance meant on nexus , Everything...No need for armor, no need for infantry, and no need to capture any bases. Once you have the air you own the map. Its that simple.

We were short pilots going in,but we had a backup plan. Well until the rules were changed at the last min per request of NNG and TGWW. We could have brought in a bunch of pilots from Connery to help out with the air that we knew they would have ,but we dont roll like that. It also was stated in the rules that this wasn't allowed.

We played by the book ,and we lost to NNG ,TGWW ,and the pilots they brought in from other outfits on Matherson.

At the end of the fight I said Good Game. Knowing what i know now I retract that statement.

Why bother making rules if you dont enforce them?

[necrate]

Originally Posted by Rolfski

2000% stronger is just another way of saying that you literally stand no chance, not even a little one as good pilot vs a top ace pilot, which is absolutely true for the current state of the air game.

This is not true at all. I think the assessment of being 20% better is more accurate in the current game, although it is still vague to use a number to argue qualitatively. A top pilot will be able to win against much less experienced pilots almost every time in a duel. That does not mean that you stand no chance, because you still can do a good amount of damage against the pilot before you die. Because this game is not about single duels, but rather quite the opposite, it makes sense that a group of top pilots could perform as well as a group of good pilots with 20% more numbers.

Originally Posted by Rolfski

And yes, you really need hundreds of hours to get to that level. To illustrate, I suggest you watch the channel from a player called MattiAce, who spends a significant part of his time on PTS only to train his skills vs other ace pilots.

To outclass nearly everyone else in the game, yes you will probably need to spend hundreds of hours. This is because others will continue to get better as time goes along and you need to keep up. Why shouldn't a guy who spent that much time practicing and making an effort to get better actually be better as a result? However, that is not what you argued previously.

You said, "If you don't spend 500+ hours into flying, you simply have no place in the air", and I replied that this is simply not true. To be competitive you don't need to spend nearly that much time. I would say 30-40 hours of flying (against other pilots! not rocket podding) is sufficient to make you a decent pilot. I hope you understand that there is a spectrum of skill and that not everyone is like MattiAce. You are assuming that everyone in the sky has spent hundreds of hours dogfighting, but from my experiences those people probably only make up close to 1% of people I've fought.