Higby Wants Your Thoughts on Iron Sights for FPS..... - Page 11

Stevo IRL · 2012-01-09, 08:15 AM

Originally Posted by Sighpolice

Haha, well yeah I see iron sights like Ipads, just some accessory you don't actually need.. Why do we need them if not for the general masses and because other games have them? A trait which is pretty much used by fashion is it not? X model wears this, that months clothes all look like X model because it's "popular"? We didn't have them in PlanetSide 1 did we...

And I don't see what you mean by that, if anything I was taking a dig at the developers of BF3, not PS2... ?

But we actually know for definite whether we need them or not. Remember the shooting mechanics have completely changed, accuracy is going to play a much bigger part then in PS1. So at the end of the day if iron sights let me be more accurate for key situations then it's all good. The only problem is if the system meant that you could do something with iron sights that you couldn't while from the hip.

FastAndFree · 2012-01-09, 08:32 AM

Originally Posted by Stevo IRL

But we actually know for definite whether we need them or not. Remember the shooting mechanics have completely changed, accuracy is going to play a much bigger part then in PS1. So at the end of the day if iron sights let me be more accurate for key situations then it's all good. The only problem is if the system meant that you could do something with iron sights that you couldn't while from the hip.

Iron sights have nothing to do with accuracy. As long as you have any kind of indication of where your bullets will go on the screen you have everything you need UI-wise to fire accurately. A dot, a simple cross, a laser beam or an elaborately modeled scope - it doesn't matter.

They however make them game more immersive imo, so I don't mind them.
Remember that what we are referring to as "iron sights" here will not just be simple mechanical gun sights but also red dots, digital targeting systems and whatnot

Goku · 2012-01-09, 08:36 AM

I don't care for iron sights, but if I can have a red dot/target reticule I will be good.

Princess Frosty · 2012-01-09, 10:19 AM

Personally I like it, you can both run and gun and use iron sights, how well you do depends on your judgement of when you should use it and when you shouldn't, that allows for a greater range of skill and tactics to the game.

**CyclesMcHurtz** · 2012-01-09, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by FastAndFree

Iron sights have nothing to do with accuracy.

Unfortunately, this is not true as most (not all) modern games increase accuracy of the Cone of Fire when in iron sights. They also reduce recoil effects. One of these allows hip-to-shoulder transitions too fast and too accurate which makes this over-powered.

I've found this to be true in most of the modern shooters I've played recently. It's the equivalent of "high and tight" in military tactics - raising the gun to your shoulder and bracing it. This provides a more stable firing "platform", better than shooting from the hip but not as good as using a tripod and laying prone. Almost no non-suppression fire team role will shoot from the hip (IRL), it's just a waste of ammunition.

Shogun · 2012-01-09, 02:49 PM

sure, hipfiring makes no sense in real life, but in action movies, it does ;-)
and we will be playing an action movie in planetside ;-)

by the way, great to have a coder stating his experiences in our discussions!
thanks a lot!

Coreldan · 2012-01-09, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by CyclesMcHurtz

Unfortunately, this is not true as most (not all) modern games increase accuracy of the Cone of Fire when in iron sights. They also reduce recoil effects. One of these allows hip-to-shoulder transitions too fast and too accurate which makes this over-powered.

I've found this to be true in most of the modern shooters I've played recently. It's the equivalent of "high and tight" in military tactics - raising the gun to your shoulder and bracing it. This provides a more stable firing "platform", better than shooting from the hip but not as good as using a tripod and laying prone. Almost no non-suppression fire team role will shoot from the hip (IRL), it's just a waste of ammunition.

I can't think of that many titles where firing without aiming down the sights would actually mean physically firing from the hip.

There is a huge difference in firing the weapon without aiming down sights and hipfiring.

GTGD · 2012-01-09, 06:11 PM

Originally Posted by Coreldan

I can't think of that many titles where firing without aiming down the sights would actually mean physically firing from the hip.

There is a huge difference in firing the weapon without aiming down sights and hipfiring.

Have you fired a gun before? While I'm certainly not experienced, I've shot rifles and shotguns at a range before and there really is not an "in-between" area.

If you shoulder your weapon, your eyes are lined up on the site (ADS). If you don't shoulder your weapon, regardless if you are firing with the gun at your hip, raised by your ribcage, or anywhere else, it is like "hipfire". This is completely inaccurate, as you will never be able to draw a line from the sight to your target without looking straight down them, especially considering that most sights are adjusted for a specific range (I'd LOVE to see adjustable sights in PS2, btw).

I would argue that PS2 needs both recoil and a COF for accuracy while firing from the hip AND ADS to keep things realistic and so it doesn't become a CoD MMO where 2 people firing down a stairway will kill you before you can even get around the corner.

Erendil · 2012-01-09, 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by Grimster

I have never liked iron sights.

I think it is a great addition if realism is what you are aiming for but in my opinion using COF instead makes shooter games more fun to play.

...

The day that we play games in full 3D with googles or whatever and all that I am sure that iron sights would make a excellent feature in shooter games.

Here's the thing: many people hold the opinion that using ADS makes shooter games more fun (myself included). However, as evidenced by this thread there are a lot of folks on either side of the fence, so if SOE is smart they'll tailor the gameplay in PS2 so both ADS and run-and-gun are viable playstyles. Each should have their uses IMO.

Oh, and RE: 3D.... I plan on buying a 3D monitor and set of LCD shutter glasses soon so I'll let u know how ADS looks in PS2 when Beta starts...

Originally Posted by Sighpolice

Haha, well yeah I see iron sights like Ipads, just some accessory you don't actually need.. Why do we need them if not for the general masses and because other games have them? A trait which is pretty much used by fashion is it not? X model wears this, that months clothes all look like X model because it's "popular"? We didn't have them in PlanetSide 1 did we...

And I don't see what you mean by that, if anything I was taking a dig at the developers of BF3, not PS2... ?

Something is merely fashionable if it looks good but serves no real purpose. But ADS definitely serves a purpose - it adds to a sense of realism and immersion and adds a tactical element to gameplay. With it you have to make the choice of being more accurate vs being a harder target to hit.

Originally Posted by Coreldan

The way I see it is that it's direct evolution to gaming. It's almost like you are saying that there shouldn't have been ever any new features added into modern games, we should just go with what we had back in 2003 and so.

To me it's a feature as games evolved, much like we're seeing nice stuff such as vaulting as opposed to having to hump-jump ourselves over knee high objects.

But yeah, it really depends how the ironsighting is made. BF3 didn't make it all that well as just about all weapons are forced to ironsight to hit anything.

I agree that ADS is an evolution to FPS gaming if done properly. For me, if an FPS doesn't have ADS it feels unnatural and arbitrarily limiting. It'd be like removing crouch.

But like many have already said, IMO the key is to not only make ADS have obviously drawbacks (usually in the form of reduced footspeed and/or a slightly delay before you can take advantages of ADS's improved accuracy), but to continue to keep run-and-gun a viable tactic.

Graywolves · 2012-01-09, 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by BlazingSun

My opinion: The "thing" we have seen in the video is hopefully just a placeholder, as it looks pretty lame and is just wrong.

I would suggest giving the guns holographic sights. They look fairly "futuristic" and would/could be the default sight for all assault rifles or submachines guns.

Keep the iron sight option to pistols.

I needded to reply to this and push this idea immediatley.

Make the fucking iron sights futuristic if we gonna have em! Holographic or neon glowy and shit, something just so I'm not like "this is stupid" because in all honesty you can't make snap shots with iron sights, your eyes need to adjust slightly for it to work properly and it's small as fuck.

So in the end I still think iron sights are retarded as fuck especially in the way modern shooters have made it as the snap-aiming option. Lame as fuck and rediculously fucking stupid.

Get rid of the iron sights. I really hate it.

Graywolves · 2012-01-09, 08:19 PM

Originally Posted by CyclesMcHurtz

Unfortunately, this is not true as most (not all) modern games increase accuracy of the Cone of Fire when in iron sights. They also reduce recoil effects. One of these allows hip-to-shoulder transitions too fast and too accurate which makes this over-powered.

I've found this to be true in most of the modern shooters I've played recently. It's the equivalent of "high and tight" in military tactics - raising the gun to your shoulder and bracing it. This provides a more stable firing "platform", better than shooting from the hip but not as good as using a tripod and laying prone. Almost no non-suppression fire team role will shoot from the hip (IRL), it's just a waste of ammunition.

Unless you're the automatic rifleman you're not looking for kills anyways if we're talking military tactics, it's all about putting the fire down the range then assualtling the position. In which case the battle drills normally call for bounding movement.

Unless you're clearing a room you almost never fire with controlled aimed bursts on the move, especially since the entire time you're moving is just for reaching the next cover or concealment.

Even so, lots of people like to try and get attachments on to their weapon.

There are other variables to a standing and crouching firing position.

http://www.armystudyguide.com/conten...-of-mark.shtml

The prone position is the most reliable with the most stable firing (even without tripod or support other than yourself) and even then shots can be very unreliable with iron sights at 200m+ as the air in your lungs has a strong effect.

Aim while crouching is next reliable but arguably most uncomfortable. Plenty of opportunity for wobbling there.

Standing while firing leaves huge room for error and then you're moving as well, there is honestly more chance for survival and hitting your target/keeping them suppressed in a spray and pray then looking down your sights while moving and taking additional seconds to get off a good shot (statisticly, on average it takes the enemy in a position 3 seconds to aim at you and fire from when you are sighted.

tl;dr Iron sights effect accuracy at certain ranges, but you're going to be dead at those ranges if you're standing in the open while moving and trying to shoot at them.

What makes me strong against iron sights is how they are used in modern shooters. Especially since no one almost anywhere in the world, even untrained, fires from the hip.... it doesn't show your toon firing from the hip, you're just not using the sights, and games try to force you to snap-aim with your sights to get concentrated shots off and it's just stupid.

It's almost like making me flip the safety between every shot.

Casual · 2012-01-09, 09:07 PM

Iron sights are okay as long as original planetside gameplay is retained and improved instead of just being changed to something else entirely.

If people stop moving and go into ADS with the JH/Lasher/MCG I will be disappointed. That's nothing like how planetside played at all and honestly wouldn't be an improvement of anything. Movement was important with those weapons and ADS usually removes that importance with some sort of extreme movement penalty.

The big problem with ADS is that it is always the better option 99% of the time. There's no deep choices being made when going into ADS, it's just better for you to use it in nearly all games it's in. If ADS in PS2 has very little or no movement penalty I will be fine with it, but if it slows down the gameplay to a crawl and just makes the game into something it isn't I wont be happy.

Ideally, the best situation would be to have ADS only be good with some weapons or just function differently depending on what class/weapon you're using.

Example :

MAX units would either have no ADS at all, or their ADS would not impart an additional movement penalty at all while only functioning as a visual magnification.

Same as above with heavy assault weapons, to retain how they handled in PS1.

Classes with MA rifles would have ADS that would add a cone of fire benefit and perhaps a movement penalty, in addition to functioning as a visual magnification.

Something along those lines would be fine.

Dreamcast · 2012-01-09, 09:17 PM

I was just seeing the video...and I was thinking exactly that.

The Iron Sights look horrible.

The middle of the iron sight, where you aim...looks way too skinny ulike any real gun I have ever seen....and it just look bad, not sure why but it did.....Maybe the video wasn't high resolution enough,idk.

I would appreciate run and gun gameplay like halo but if they want it more tactical then please don't do it like modern warfare.

Somewhere between halo and Modern warfare I guess.

Fate · 2012-01-10, 02:59 AM

Everyone knows that actually using the ironsights feature is optional, right? You don't have to actually ironsight to fire a weapon.

Gandhi · 2012-01-10, 03:02 AM

Originally Posted by DarkFate

Everyone knows that actually using the ironsights feature is optional, right? You don't have to actually ironsight to fire a weapon.

As soon as it affects accuracy it stops being optional. If you want to make it purely a cosmetic thing to 'enhance realism' I'm totally fine with that, but that's not how it's going to be.

Since this game is all about customization why don't we just add a "Shooting From The Hip" attachment? Or at least let us change the iron sight for each gun to something we can live with, from nothing at all to holographic ones to a giant metal rectangle that covers up everything in front of you. That way all that's left is the actual mechanic, which I still don't like for this game but could probably live with.