Defining the role of Light Assault - Page 5

TheInferno · 2012-06-09, 11:51 PM

Originally Posted by Malorn

1) Why would a squad want to take a light assault instead of another MAX, medic, engineer, or heavy assault?

2) Why would you take someone that by their very design won't stay with the squad?

3) Why take someone who's class design is to run off, go someplace that the rest of the squad can't follow, and then die off by himself out of revive range by a medic?

I'm going to try to take a shot at defending the Light Assault as is, so at least there's a sounding board.

1) While extra firepower is good, having someone in the right position can make all the difference. By flanking from the side or even above, you can deal with an enemy easier. Tactics like this will help a good squad engage and eliminate the enemy easier.

2) Why wouldn't they? Just because they are more mobile than any other unit doesn't mean they can't stay with the squad and spread out to engage the enemy. Even in cases where the squad is storming a building, I could see a pair of lights breaking off and going in the top way, throwing in some smoke and flashbangs to cause some chaos as the rest of the squad pushes in. This does of course pull them away from the medics, but it's not like they're half a base away, either.

3) This seems like a rehash of number two with a bit more dislike for Light Assault, honestly.

I think you addressed that, though. Honestly, as much as the forum hates hearing it (and I think I've already said it so I'll sound like a broken record) we'll need to play with the class before we can say it's useless or not. Theoryside is all well and good, and you're probably better at it than I ever could be, but even so, things need to hit the proving ground. If that makes any sense.

Knightwyvern · 2012-06-10, 12:00 AM

Originally Posted by Malorn

Wall of well reasoned argument

Very nice post. A few things I'd like to address; last time I knew, Infils did indeed have the ability to use SMG's and perhaps even shotguns. I'm ok with that, but as you said it does devalue the LA. This may have changed when I wasn't looking, I'm not sure.

In the E3 demo, LA did indeed have smoke and flash grenades along with C4 grenades, which kind of spawned the original idea of a grenadier class I think; I can of course see your concerns for a grenadier LA, though I think it would be hard to tell if it would be a good implementation without testing it first. Like everything else, basically :P

Yes, PS2 is heavy on teamwork, and I'm all for that; read almost any of my posts. However, I think that you're confusing the fact that a LA is a "loner" class with it not being valuable in a team setting even without any secondary roles besides the jump pack. After all, sometimes that Heavy Infantry squad just can't bust the shell on that base. Proper use of harassment using the verticality of the game could be just the ticket in a lot of situations IMO.

EDIT: TheInferno said that same thing better above. :P

Also, as you and Electrofreak have said, I'd be all for sharing some of the advanced spotting features with the Infiltrator. LA would make for great target designators for OS when an infil can't get the job done.

It is tough though. It seems to me that at the end of the day what the LA has going for it is jet pack, jet pack, jet pack. Very useful, but we may just have to live with the fact that the class has a more narrow window of usefulness than some of the other classes. At least, more highly specialized.

**Malorn** · 2012-06-10, 12:10 AM

Originally Posted by TheInferno

1) While extra firepower is good, having someone in the right position can make all the difference. By flanking from the side or even above, you can deal with an enemy easier. Tactics like this will help a good squad engage and eliminate the enemy easier.

Yes, that is a valuable thing, which an infiltrator can also provide with cloaking - and the infil has spotting bonuses to boot. AND the infil can provide hacking services. Sure, he can't hop on a building, but cloaking is another form of mobility and flanking and can be used to effectively fill the same role with additional benefits to the squad (which the LA cannot provide). And the infiltrator is much less likely to die in a place where he cannot receive a res.

But the point of my question is whether another medic, another vehicle/max busting Heavy, another MAX, or an engineer couldn't fill most of that role and much more. I have a hard time say "hey medic, please switch to light assault" - and I can't picture myself saying that and, more importantly, I can't picture myself saying with a straight face that my squad got stronger by making that switch.

2) Why wouldn't they? Just because they are more mobile than any other unit doesn't mean they can't stay with the squad and spread out to engage the enemy. Even in cases where the squad is storming a building, I could see a pair of lights breaking off and going in the top way, throwing in some smoke and flashbangs to cause some chaos as the rest of the squad pushes in. This does of course pull them away from the medics, but it's not like they're half a base away, either.

3) This seems like a rehash of number two with a bit more dislike for Light Assault, honestly.

I think you're missing the point that manpower is limited, as an officer in an organized outfit my goal is to have an optimal and efficient squad. While I get the point that yes, a well trained Light Assault will know his limits, but if he's on top of a building and dies there's no way he's getting a res. Then we're down a man and possibly separated if the squad spawn timer is down. Effecitvely squad spawn would become the "light assault and infiltrator" spawn for when they over-reach or fail in their flanking attempt and die in a bad spot. Given the long timer on a squad spawn we will naturally want to keep the number of such players to a minimum in the squad. Training and skill can help overcome that, but it still takes us back to the desire to have a class that will be a guaranteed asset to the squad and not one that is potentially a liability.

I want consistent success, and I don't see LA as a class that brings the squad closer to that. At best, there would be 1 in 10 as a light assault. At best. That assumes 2 max, 2 engis, 2 medics, 2 HA's, and an infiltrator. But looking at that breakdown I still have a hard time thinking the LA is a better choice than another HA, MAX, or Medic.

OutlawDr · 2012-06-10, 12:46 AM

To start of with, lets give LA flash-bang, smoke and other utility grenades. Give them an upgraded spotting ability, but make it mechanically different than the infiltrators somehow.

I'm not worried about the LA's combat effectiveness within a squad. We saw in the videos several LAs flanking and killing enemies that were distracted by squad members. Im more concerned that they lack utility and that they seem very one dimensional.

Its true that with LAs there is a much higher probability that they will be killed outside of revive range. An idea I believe a dev brought up is that the medic can have a "revive grenade" or something like that. My knee-jerk reaction was that is sounded lame. But I've been warming it up to it, and it could also act as a good solution to the LA out of revive range problem. If there is a dead LA on top of the building, throw a revive grenade up there. Tradeoff is that it takes the grenade slot of the medic, cost resources to buy just like grenades, and are limited. It wouldn't be your go-to revive skill, but something for special emergencies...like an out of reach LA or Inf.

kaffis · 2012-06-10, 01:04 AM

Ugh. I don't think the rocklet rifle is a good match for LA.

Basically, I don't think you can give LA anything even half-decent against vehicles, or else they'll be the only thing you need outdoors. Remember, LA is the class best able to jump over a vehicle to gain a big fat view of the tanks squishy rear end. Giving them explosives to shoot at that rear end risks completely trivializing conventional AV weaponry from a MAX or HA with even the slightest balance slip-up.

Better to just not walk that line.

LA's anti-infantry weaponry appears to be reasonably effective against MAXes already when used with good LA movement tactics. That's as far as I'd want it to go.

**Malorn** · 2012-06-10, 01:06 AM

Originally Posted by OutlawDr

Its true that with LAs there is a much higher probability that they will be killed outside of revive range. An idea I believe a dev brought up is that the medic can have a "revive grenade" or something like that. My knee-jerk reaction was that is sounded lame. But I've been warming it up to it, and it could also act as a good solution to the LA out of revive range problem. If there is a dead LA on top of the building, throw a revive grenade up there. Tradeoff is that it takes the grenade slot of the medic, cost resources to buy just like grenades, and are limited. It wouldn't be your go-to revive skill, but something for special emergencies...like an out of reach LA or Inf.

I hadn't thought of revive grenades with that purpose before, but that is a good idea. If a LA dies on top of a building and the medic has a good idea where he is and they cert for such grenades to aid the squad, then it could indeed be a good way of getting them back in the fight without using squad spawn or getting separated. I have a feeling though that those situations where a LA is in throwing range but not reviving range might be quite limited. But revive grenades have other applications than just LA/Inf, so it seems like a good approach for that.

I've seen the ideas of a medic "drag" ability as well. Perhaps they can make up some nanite magic and give Medics a device (perhaps a type of res upgrade) that either allows a ranged res or the ability to teleport the body to the medic (on a reasonable cooldown and range of course). Could be one of many medic tool options. The tradeoff would be longer time between res's and perhaps another downside, but for medics working a lot with LA/Infs, it might be a good tool and more reliable than the grenades. Something like that wouldn't be usable across the map but I would think if a medic could get within 25 or so meters of a body that he could teleport it and then revive.

I agree with the rest of the post too about them being too one-dimensional. That's what I'm referring to when I say they don't bring enough value to the squad.

Grognard · 2012-06-10, 01:10 AM

Originally Posted by Knightwyvern

In the E3 demo, LA did indeed have smoke and flash grenades along with C4 grenades, which kind of spawned the original idea of a grenadier class I think; I can of course see your concerns for a grenadier LA, though I think it would be hard to tell if it would be a good implementation without testing it first. Like everything else, basically :P

Actually, the process in my brain, that caused me to suggest a utilitarian grenadier function for this class, was this...

There was a debate about who should carry ammo packs, not if, rather who. So, since I will play LA, I responded that I felt the engineer synergizes best in that role.
http://www.planetside-universe.com/s...&postcount=161

Thereafter, Dagron, and Knightwyvern expressed a concern, just as Malorn is, that the LA class is limited in scope. Its a very valid concern due to this being a team-based game. So, this got me thinking about what is not represented in the game yet, and synergizes well with a class that is definable by its mobility, yet lacking in utility.

After some time, I realized something was added to the Engineer, so, was there something that does not synergize as well, or better with the LA class in comparison, to transfer some of the pressure off the engineer class, something non-iconic. A role of some kind, not thought of yet. Since, spotter was taken, and wasnt part of the engineer class, I tried to be somewhat original, and think out of the current box.

It was then I saw the 5 explosives for engineer, and 3 for everyone else, specifically the sticky grenade... In my mind I had an image of myself, as an LA jumping at a tank (oddly enough, a MagRider... and I'm Vanu), hitting the ground at the right time, being close enough to stick a moving vehicle, and jumping away, blowing a chunk of armor off, unharmed. A highly mobile, highly useful "explosives based" function, that can help a squad deal with all kinds of threats, flashbangs, smoke, C4, etc. Now, coupled with stickies, a lesser form of AV. Also, with perhaps charger grenades, an ECM-type utility as well. So, with all the mobility based utility grenades, the "grenadier" name was a no brainer, and lead to the suggestion.
http://www.planetside-universe.com/s...&postcount=225

I still maintain that it would be fun, useful, and in keeping with the primary class focus. Very little needs to be done from a developer stand point, as everything is in the game already, and they were going to remove the ammo dispensation ability from this class anyway. LA would definately not be anything close to a one trick pony, with a grenadier secondary, as I envision the implementation. Any imbalances, such as creating a "bouncing AOE spammer" is as easily fixed as any other class, once its used in action.

bpostal · 2012-06-10, 01:16 AM

The LAs mobility makes them perfect for recon and flanking. As it stands the Ammo resupply should be an Engy thing and it shouldn't be spammable. Gaining the high ground is going to be a big deal in PS2 and without air support the LA seems to be tailor made for this kind of game play.
Adv spotting certs could bring some extra usefulness. Perhaps some kind of NV/Thermal vision ability?
Grenades cost resources so I don't expect them to be spammed but it would be fun to have a viable Grenadier hit and run build.
I would hope after a short 'learning' period most LA players would realize that playing smart, staying alive and most importantly staying within support range of your squad is more important than getting killed trying to kill whore atop a tree or wall.

OutlawDr · 2012-06-10, 01:26 AM

Originally Posted by Malorn

I hadn't thought of revive grenades with that purpose before, but that is a good idea. If a LA dies on top of a building and the medic has a good idea where he is and they cert for such grenades to aid the squad, then it could indeed be a good way of getting them back in the fight without using squad spawn or getting separated. I have a feeling though that those situations where a LA is in throwing range but not reviving range might be quite limited. But revive grenades have other applications than just LA/Inf, so it seems like a good approach for that.

I've seen the ideas of a medic "drag" ability as well. Perhaps they can make up some nanite magic and give Medics a device (perhaps a type of res upgrade) that either allows a ranged res or the ability to teleport the body to the medic (on a reasonable cooldown and range of course). Could be one of many medic tool options. The tradeoff would be longer time between res's and perhaps another downside, but for medics working a lot with LA/Infs, it might be a good tool and more reliable than the grenades. Something like that wouldn't be usable across the map but I would think if a medic could get within 25 or so meters of a body that he could teleport it and then revive.

I agree with the rest of the post too about them being too one-dimensional. That's what I'm referring to when I say they don't bring enough value to the squad.

A ranged revive ability coupled with revive grenades I think would cover most situations without needing to resort to teleports. A good LA that supports his squad shouldn't get that separated that a medic can neither see him nor get him with a grenade. That ranged revive ability could be an alt attack of a specialized revive tool. It shoots a dart with nanite healing goodness. Drawback is that its normal revives (plus the ranged) are slower than normal...something like that.

GuyFawkes · 2012-06-10, 02:35 AM

I see LA as a role within itself , and needing little else . A team can all be LA , fly into enemy territory (need no galaxy either) , quickly get to their target . Hack and then deploy out to their respective roles (max,ha , eng, medic etc etc)within their group to defend their objective .
Or be like a spearhead to get in fast , signal to the heavy squad to come in while they give light cover , and move on to the next or just act as recon .

Xyntech · 2012-06-10, 03:22 AM

I certainly believe that between the versatile angles an LA trooper can assist their squad from, along with thing like medics revive grenades to keep them in the fight, LA will be able to be worked into many mixed unit squads, but I also think it will shine the brightest when working as a tactical response unit alongside an entire squad of other LA (perhaps some Infiltrators and maybe a medic as well. Maybe even an engi depending on the operation).

Agiles were never about strong combined arm pushes in the first game. Back in the days of Surgile, they were elite duelists who could break through defensive lines or ambush small groups of enemies. Even after Surgile was removed and Rexo was buffed and became the all pervasive armor type, Agile was still the tactical response armor, because it was the only armor that could pilot a rapid response aircraft.

We don't currently know if HA will be able to fly ES fighters (the devs probably don't even know yet), but I think it's partially irrelevant to this particular topic. No longer will rapid responders wear Agile just because it's the most powerful armor they can fit into their aircraft with, they will use it because it is a more tactically diverse armor in and of itself.

A squad of 10 Scythe pilots rapidly responding to a back hack, bailing out, and kiting/grenading and just generally hitting the enemy from every angle they don't expect is going to be a powerful tactic.

So I'm not to worried about LA. I wouldn't mind seeing their role(s) solidified further into something distinctly LA, but I think they already have a clear place in the game. It may not be a place that is always the best for squads who wish to keep a tight formation, but you'd have to be pretty myopic to think those kinds of squads or the only type that needs to be supported.

Also, a little more Quake never hurt anybody. Keep the slower paced MAXes and HA intact and balanced/useful, but let LA be LA. The game could use a little twitch. Surgile had to nixed in the first game, but that was because the game was broken and Surgile played into that problem. The fast paced shooter mechanic itself would have been fine aside from that. The game shouldn't try to be everything to everyone, but there's no reason it can't have a large range of play styles and still be balanced.

Electrofreak · 2012-06-10, 08:13 AM

Originally Posted by GuyFawkes

I see LA as a role within itself , and needing little else . A team can all be LA , fly into enemy territory (need no galaxy either) , quickly get to their target . Hack and then deploy out to their respective roles (max,ha , eng, medic etc etc)within their group to defend their objective .
Or be like a spearhead to get in fast , signal to the heavy squad to come in while they give light cover , and move on to the next or just act as recon .

While this may be true, they still need skills and abilities to certify in. The question is ultimately what that will be... right now it's ammo resupply which the developers clearly are not comfortable with, and I agree with them. Players have suggested LA be grenadiers, or special-ops using placed explosives (which makes me think of sappers) to take out defenses in advance of an assault.

Other options are scouts, anti-area-denial, or light AI/AV/AA as I suggested.

While we may say "LA fit their role just fine", we still need to define what their abilities may be.

ThermalReaper · 2012-06-10, 08:15 AM

My guess they are the supporting flankers to the MAXs and HAs on the front lines. I'm not sure If I should speak about this till beta but we can still debate about it.

ParisTeta · 2012-06-10, 11:42 AM

Some interessting ideas and valid concerns, but i think most are to focused to give it a secondary role in primary strength, but there are many ways to fine tune that. But first:

Primary Advantage is mobility, even indoors (get up catwalks etc.) which makes them flanker and first line attacker or very mobile defensive. But with just the carabine(?) they just effective for Infantry. They need to be more effective against everything else, making the difference...in squad/platoon play, not in solo play.

Grenadier/Rocklet is the best idea so far, but need some fine tuning, so here are some suggestion:

a) PS1 Punisher Style, you have a underslung greande launcher on your weapon with limited ammunition 1-2 Shots max which can loaded with grenade and rocklets of different typ. EMP to disable turrets (even manable) weaken MAXes and Vehicle (reduced ROF,Speed, dsibale special ability for a short amount of time). Then some area denial weapon against Infantry, a plasma patch on the ground something like that though not stackbale or only limited.

This would allow them for better squad use, can weaken MAXes, but not just solo them) and make some area denial against infantry. Still looking at this class and think "How does it fit in my squad" is wrong, the question is "How does that fit into my plattoon?" is the right one, a small squad of LA can do the difference!.

b) Super speciality, Rocklet or Thumber like weapon, but no carabine, and should be alot weaker against infantry, so no carabine anymore.

c) Underslugged Shotgun with 2-4 Shots for extra close range punch inside a base.

Knightwyvern · 2012-06-10, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by ParisTeta

Some interessting ideas and valid concerns, but i think most are to focused to give it a secondary role in primary strength, but there are many ways to fine tune that. But first:

Primary Advantage is mobility, even indoors (get up catwalks etc.) which makes them flanker and first line attacker or very mobile defensive. But with just the carabine(?) they just effective for Infantry. They need to be more effective against everything else, making the difference...in squad/platoon play, not in solo play.

Grenadier/Rocklet is the best idea so far, but need some fine tuning, so here are some suggestion:

a) PS1 Punisher Style, you have a underslung greande launcher on your weapon with limited ammunition 1-2 Shots max which can loaded with grenade and rocklets of different typ. EMP to disable turrets (even manable) weaken MAXes and Vehicle (reduced ROF,Speed, dsibale special ability for a short amount of time). Then some area denial weapon against Infantry, a plasma patch on the ground something like that though not stackbale or only limited.

This would allow them for better squad use, can weaken MAXes, but not just solo them) and make some area denial against infantry. Still looking at this class and think "How does it fit in my squad" is wrong, the question is "How does that fit into my plattoon?" is the right one, a small squad of LA can do the difference!.

b) Super speciality, Rocklet or Thumber like weapon, but no carabine, and should be alot weaker against infantry, so no carabine anymore.

c) Underslugged Shotgun with 2-4 Shots for extra close range punch inside a base.

I believe that there is already a underslung grenade launcher and shotgun customization option, so that is already covered.

As far as effectiveness vs MAX and armor, I believe (this is just my opinion) that the C4 grenade's purpose is to give LA that basic level of anti-armor effectiveness. Hard to say without knowing the actual mechanics of it.