Important Issues, Life or Death of the Game

[Legolas]

Originally Posted by Redshift

Problem is atm the action is no where near as consistent as those games because everyone is spread out without front lines, or real objectives.

Maybe the mission system will help with objectives... I can't understand how such a thing would work though.

[sylphaen]

Originally Posted by Legolas

Maybe the mission system will help with objectives... I can't understand how such a thing would work though.

a resource system, a mission system, a hex system... The PS2 system is too complex (sometimes in unnecessary ways) to achieve what PS1 did with facilities/lattice.

We can hope devs strike a balance to make it work but the more complex a system is, the harder it is have everything working well together.

I think PS2 is just too open; kind of like how too open PS1 was before its lattice system.

[Shogun]

Originally Posted by Crator

You need depth in games to keep people coming back. The easy and fun part of Planetside 1 and 2 is shooting people. As long as you don't make it overly complicated to get to the fight there shouldn't be an issue. There are smart players who know how to read instruction books and on-screen dialog to help them figure out the meta-game. Those players who do figure out the meta-game begin leading the rest of the empire via tools given to them to communicate to their empire on the battlefield. The players who aren't keen about what to do where to go take cues from the other players leading.

THIS!

ps2 is doing fine with the easy fun part, the shooting.
but it is lacking in the meta fungame for the noncasuals.
planetside 1 did very well in the meta part. it was extremely satisfying when a cr5 strategy worked out and a long battle was won that turned the tide on the war for the whole continent (or even world in some rare cases) .

too many great ps1 mechanics are gone now. and the reimplementation of ams has proven that not everything the vets want is bullshit. the ams works fine and the vets told us so right from the beginning. there are a lot of ps1 mechanics, that worked great and should make a return in ps2. since ps1 is so unknown, it would count as innovation for a shooter and that´s what a lot of gamers are looking for.

[Gonefshn]

The only thing I really agree with here is the overall goal.

I never have lag issues even in big fights. Any time lag appears they seem to address it on the forums or in notes and end up fixing the issue.

I like the new open base designs though I agree having SOME bases that go back to old style PS1 would be a welcome addition.

Playing with my outfit I never feel like strategy and dynamic battle is missing.
In all combat situations we are always finding ways to address the fight and cleverly come up with solutions that work. Enemies pulling armor, Bringing in Sunderers and libs, etc. All these things change the flow of a battle and have different implications and things that need to be done to address them. It doesn't feel like BF3 or CoD because the fight can change so quickly with so many factors. Strategy is totally viable and present in the current build of the game. I do not see myself getting bored. The actual gunplay and moment to moment is so much fun I always enjoy myself.

Only big gripe I have is the resource cap is too low. It should be more like 2000.

[elementHTTP]

Originally Posted by SpottyGekko

My understanding is that SOE's intention with PS2 is to develop a game where BF3/CoD players will feel immediately comfortable, but to also offer them increased depth combined with the persistence of an MMO.

PS2 is not being made for PS1 vets. It is clearly a whole new ballgame, and it has a completely different set of priorities than its predecessor.

I imagine the process went something like this:

1. We (SOE) have to revitalise our MMO business, our products are ageing and our sub-based model is outdated.
2. Let's be the first to build AAA MMO's and launch them as F2P offerings. We will be the Wallmart of the MMO industry, low margins (micro-transactions) but high volumes (huge number of players).
3. Which of our current IP's is best suited to lead this "new direction" ?
4. Aha ! Planetside ! It always had good potential and a small but loyal following. It has relatively simple mechanics compared to standard fantasy MMO's, so development time will be shorter.
5. It also has the potential to pull in players from all over the massive FPS fanbase. Besides, there is no other MMOFPS to compete with, we have the market entirely to ourselves !
6. Sooo... a potential playerbase of millions and no competing products, this could be a licence to print money

Unless SOE as a studio scrap their entire new F2P-focused development strategy (unlikely at this point), PS2 has to pay for it's development cost by attracting a very large number of players.

Think in the range of 2 to 3 million "registered accounts" in the first year or two. If each one of those accounts spend a minimum of $10, PS2 will be well on the way to covering it's development cost. But to make an actual profit, SOE will have to somehow persuade those players to part with more than $10 each on average.

Last time I looked, the "classic FPS player" was a lone wolf who played solo for k/b score, achievements, unlocks and medals (i.e. personal bragging rights). Yes, there are clans and teams in the FPS world, but I'd be amazed if even 10% of the total FPS audience played the majority of their games in a true co-ordinated team-based fashion.

And the "classic FPS player" is where PS2 will find its "millions of players". If it can't lure those players in to spend $20 to $30 each and stick around for 3 months or so, it will most likely fail to meet it's objectives.

SpottyGekko hit the spot

If PS2 cannot generate money there will be no PS2 (long therm ) ! Basic law of economics
-more people or wide audience = more potential money
- so better written code / optimization => less money i have to spend to play PS2 = more money i can spend on PS2 simple !

how do you make people spend cash ?
- by going league of legends route (arguably the most successful FTP model)
- DO NOT REINVENT THE WHEEL ! (concentrate on selling more cooler cosmetics not BOOSTS ! )

Now this is make or brake
- game must BE FAIR AND FUN for most people
game mechanic is free ,cosmetics isn't

- resources/xp boost = potentially more tanks/air + better situational response = not fair for most people = P2W !
- its easy to sell boosts then to optimize code for cosmetics !
- if frame rate is choppy now imagine when cosmetics come in game will be unplayable
- population imbalance is next big problem this brakes everything they try to balance

Then we come to how to keep people in
- what is fun for most people ( not for loud ones ) ?
- what is making player base bored of playing
- this is where feedback is important
All People must give SOE feedback its critical for game success

- PS2 vets vs new-coming FPS player base who will prevail its up to your constructive feedback

[The Kush]

Thanks everyone for taking the time to read. I am glad some people aren't dealing with lag anymore, my friends and I still are but it seems that there might be some steps in the right direction.

A few of you touched on this but the lattice system truly gave a feeling of accomplishment and you really thought the battle meant something. You also always had a direction to go, you knew where the front lines were. I like how another user put it, at times the current system is almost to chaotic and difficult. Keep it nice and easy.

Some of you agreed with my points on bases. To the user who suggested some change and some don't, I would be open to that. The problem I have is look at any modern base, castle, fortress, ect for all of recorded history. They ALWAYS have a wall. This is because you need a perimeter to defend. The fun part is defending that wall. The attackers are rewarded when they finally breakthrough. That's what made PS1 fun, it wasn't always easy, some battles were long. But you were always getting kills and in the en strategy conquered numbers. The very first screenshots of PS2 showed based completely surrounded with walls. Add some shield gates to some of the bases and this will be incredibly fun.

Basically I can agree, the shooting mechanics are going the COD/BF route and I am fine with that (not preferred but as people have said they want to appeal to that audience) but to have the game addicting and fun, you need the conquest aspects of PS1, that is what will make this mmo great and keep people hooked.

[Gonefshn]

Most AMP stations have full walls and shield gates now.

The bases you are looking for already exist.

The problem is without a lattice system there are never enough players at that base at a given time to occupy that perimeter. My experiences in beta show that the walls don't hold people out like they did in PS1. In PS1 the base was small enough that the main pop of an empire could properly cover the walls on all sides. You couldn't get close to the wall easily. Getting over it meant a true siege. In PS2 the bases are there, and are well laid out but the size of them and no lattice system means you will never have the mass of players necessary to use the walls effectively. Sure the walls are there but most the time I can walk right up to them easily. No one sits on the walls and shoots at people approaching the bases in PS2 like in PS1.

The lattice system tell players which base they need to protect, you can be sure which base the enemy will be coming for so you know where to concentrate forces. It's a more restricting system but it allowed the bases to function properly. The designs of the bases are fine whats missing is the incentive to properly defend them. Bigger bases means more people are necessary to hold the line. Period.

[GuyFawkes]

The game does have potential

PS1 was cut off at the knees before it came out. The mmo was relatively unknown, FPS meant counter strike or UT/quake, and paying a sub for a fps was taboo. The guys making the engine for ps1 were shunted off to eq2 land before they could blink. Advertisement was non existant, we've probably seen more sightings of the Loch Ness Monster in all honesty. Not a great start. Bugs existed for years, it was a hackers wet dream. Things cited as ps1 unique features weren't even in game at launch, like the lattice system. Command structure was little more than epeen sanctuary for the main part.

PS2 at least has a decent foundation to work from this time. MMO's are 2 a penny , ftp is becoming more mainstream. Don't forget one of the biggest drawbacks for ps1 was population. Little to kill dosen't make for a great shooter. The devs are listening (sometimes too much..look at the esf banjoing going on..forumside ftl), they added ams (in a fashion) they adjusted the cert gain, they are still on going working on hex system and trying to make it better. Nothing is set in stone. Matt Higby mentioned the hex and lattice systems , but for now are still seeing if the hex thing can be made better. Need to give them time.
They acknowledge that the certs are a bit lacklustre in several areas, many were probably just placeholders to fill in gaps. But they have to try stuff out to see how things work , or don't.
I think they have done an incredible job so far in the time they have had. This time last year ps2 was just a wink in a ps1 fans eyes,don't forget.

Don't get me wrong, I think the game has a bucket load of things to add to get the long term appeal in there to make it addictive and worthy of that planetside tag, but it all takes time and these are people working in the soe offices, not robots. I'm sure they are aware of most peoples concerns, but the process is like building with Lego. The icing that made ps1 appealing can always be added, but unless the foundation is right from day 1, they are just making trouble for the future.

[sylphaen]

A lot of good posts in this thread. Thanks everyone for taking the time to post your thoughts !

Just to add on GuyFawkes comment after thinking about his point, we do are a very demanding crowd (and I'm not the last at complaining either).


Roma was not erected in one day ! In time, we can hope PS2 will succeed as well (and also not suffer the whole empire breakdown to dark ages part).


So to get straight to the point like we do when criticizing: thank you for all your hard work devs !

[berzerkerking]

Seriously? After all the constant patching do you really think that they are not working on that. This is what a real beta is. You should be thankful they are not making you run on specific parts of the map and submitting full reports to them for every systematic glitch the found. I may not have experience in planetside but i do have great experience in closed beta. Calm your tits they hear you.

[Redshift]

Originally Posted by berzerkerking

I may not have experience in planetside but i do have great experience in closed beta. Calm your tits they hear you.

The bit they're are missing is the bit that made planetside awesome..... They don't hear us as much as you think, they're months from release and we feel they're missing some massive huge chunks of gameplay. What they have atm is a game that doesn't feel like it has any longevity, that's why people are bitching.

[igster]

PS2 Mechanics are excellent generally. And the graphics are amazing. But the gameplay really does need to be there. F2P will fail if it offers no gameplay hook to keep people coming back. F2P will be a 3 month Blast with a game and then move on to other things because it is boring and there is no depth to the gameplay.

The biggest hindrance to the meta game is not in my opinion the lattice... it is more the map. It's very difficult to ascertain the status of any base my looking what is on the map..

Take a look at the map...What do you know? influence. nme population. That is all. It is so clunky. Resources.. they are just numbers... meh... really can't get excited about seeing numbers..

Quick Scan of the map.. are any bases under threat.... ER.. NO IDEA TBH.. THERE ARE NME THERE BUT I KNOW NOTHING ELSE ABOUT THE BASE OVER THERE
Is there any friendlies there defending it? NO IDEA.
What is the progress if the cap? NOT A SCOOBY DOO CLUE.
How long ago was it taken? DONT KNOW AND BY NOW I DONT CARE
Is anyone reacting to it? NOT A CLUE - I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHO IS ON THE SERVER ANYMORE
I cant see this stuff so i don't care. It flips.. we just go flip it back. Zerg Zerg. Rubbish meta game.

Reminds me of the saying
"If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"
"If a base is assaulted in PS2 and noone is around to see it, would it have been a great fight?"
There are so many gameplay opportunities being missed right now and great fights that just don't happen because noone has the information to react and make the great fights. Organised squads take a base and no-one really responds because the opposition just don't know about the moves being made. A well oiled squad go and take a big base and no-one cares because the decent opposition are busy zerging away on the other side of the map or on the other continent.
The only intelligence information you ever get on the map is if there is a dirty great big tank zerg and it shows up on your map.

PS1 on the other hand.
We had the Tools to detect the plays of the opposition : The MAP.
Hawkeye CR5s and vets spotting a base being capped.
Spotting a generator going down
Spotting a tower being flipped
Spotting a base being drained
Spotting a block of blue/red on tactical radar.

Right.. they are moving in on base X..
Who is there? Oh it's UMVS/DT/Wawawawhatagreatbigscrote/phychophonics lot/TrX/Outcasters/Azure Twilight/BRTD..
Is anyone responding.
Lets respond..... Let the games begin.... organise a response.
We need this .. we need that.. get an AMS... get a gal.. get a tank.. pull this do that....organise.
Gal drop to flip a base..
Gal drop to secure a base last minute

I cannot say it enough.. this was the gold dust of Planetside 1.
We had teams who specialised in Special operations and resecuring and would hate to zerg.
Resecuring a base with 1 second left on the cap.
Gal dropping a base and stopping a massive zerg in it's tracks.
Flipping a base.
Prepping a base for a heroic capture against the odds without being spotted.

This was the meta game at it's finest.
All death match games lose their novelty... planetside had terrible mechanics but this meta game kept them playing and coming back for a long time.

The Twitch shooter crowd will lap it up once they actually see what effect it has on how they play together and understand it.. Marry this depth with twitch fps mechanic and you will be playing for years and years... This is what the veterans are crying out for.

Oh and make the bases able to be defended by squad sized teams. Kush has it right. The bases are actually Death Match maps where you can be attacked from any angle at any time.

Back to basics. Even as simple as being able to list the approaches makes teamwork possible. There are too many approaches to each of the objectives in the bases. Back Door, VBay, Air Term, Maindoor, CC resulted in a small squad being able to put up an effective defence against the odds.
A small squad could lock down a base so that they could call out incomings and react while keeping a strong defence. Great teamwork could result. Therefore you had to step up and work well to beat the defence.

I don't even know how to describe all the approaches to strategic objectives in this game. Most of them end up being outdoors with multiple ways to attack them resulting in a squad having little or no chance of being able to defend other than to overwhelm the opposition with superior numbers.

[texico]

Originally Posted by igster

*map stuff*

THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS.

It's subtle but so true. Playing PlanetSide, the map is your bible. PlanetSide 1 gave you all the kind of information he was talking about. On an individual scale it meant you had a clear picture of what was going on so you yourself feel more organized and see the point, and on a larger scale the whole empire is more organized, more responsive, more cohesive. They have the information necessary to react to what's happening to their own bases, or what's happening to the oppositions.

[Buggsy]

The BF3/COD players are use to riding in steam trains, let's show them the automobile.

Translation: The BF3/COD players don't know what they want.

[sylphaen]

I second what Igster said.