Proposed ESF nerf: Why? Will it improve revenue?

[Memeotis]

Originally Posted by SolLeks

Dude, I fly in support of my ground troops 90% of the time. Hell, sometimes I lead the squad in my ESF wile they are all on the ground (landing for beacon duty is a pain though)

When I am in the air, my platoon knows that unless there are a large number of aircraft that overwhelm me, or an ace flies in that I have trouble with, they are safe from almost all air targets, all the wile I fly ahead and scout bases and I spot / attack sundies and other tanks / infantry with my A2A specced ESF.

Also, there is no reason not to let ESF attack the ground. The ground is where the game is won or lost. If you can't have your own factions ESF clear the skys, or have AA up, then your failing in the combined arms section of this game!

ESF have to be able to attack ground targets if they are to matter at all in this game. Libs are not that prevalent due to all the lockons and AA as well as ESF hunting them down, though when I fly in support of libs, the ESF are no worry, but they still get tuns of ground fire that keeps them running often. It sounds like you just don't want anything in the air to be able to effect the ground game, thus you do not want a combined arms game.

Like I said, the ESF has a huge potential for working together with ground troops. It's got the functionality of both a jet and a helicopter. And if you're putting it to good use, great. Unfortunately, the average player will most likely use the ESF for lone-wolf A2G game-play.

It's not that you can't use teamwork when you use an ESF, the problem is that there are not many factors conditioning ESF pilots to automatically behave like teamplayes. As an infantry, or a tank driver, even if you are playing by yourself, you have to actively participate in some level of teamwork with friendlies in order to be successful. The battlefield conditions you. You can't just bounce around from area to area like the ESFs can. Well, you can, but it would make you extremely inefficient and your score would be extremely low.

Ground troops don't get to view the battlefield like some sort of XP buffet, where you can just pick and choose, while also earning a lot of points.

And no. You are completely missing the point, I do want A2G. Very much so, I just want to see A2G done in a way, where the A2G aircrafts are limited in ways that force them to cooperate with ground-troops to a greater extent.

Originally Posted by SolLeks

Most people don't seem to work in a team at all in this game, I don't understand your point.

Also FYI, our aircraft fly slower than an apache gunship does.

And last edit, the change that the devs wanted to make would stop NOTHING AT ALL, NOTHING, NOTHING and again NOTHING that you just posted that you want changed.

How is this relevant? I'm using an example. An apache is slower than an F-35, use that speed ratio to figure out how fast a helicopter in PS2 ought to be.

[Kerrec]

Disclaimer: I'm not a flyboy. I'm just here to play devil's advocate. I also didn't read the entirety of this thread, so if I'm repeating something, I apologize. That said, here's my input:

When I first read about V-Thrust being nerfed, I did the same WTF as most flyboys. I mean, I agree that the reverse maneuver is one of the things that makes PS2 different, and I approve of this. So I walked away from the announcement a bit baffled.

Now more time has gone by. And I've thought, why don't I fly anymore? I mean, I did cert up my Mosquito back in the LOLpod hayday to do A2A combat, but I gave it up pretty quick. Why is that?

Well maybe it was a question of perception. I mean, I upgraded to Dogfighter 3 airfraime, got A2A missiles and upgraded to a Rotary. Badass A2A, or so I thought. Then the reverse maneuver came out and it turns out if you want to be good at dogfighting, you need to use Hover 3 and be good at swapping between First Person and Third Person. That kind of killed it for me...

Having admitted that much, I started to wonder how many ACE pilots (whatever that distinction means in terms of stats) run Hover 3? The stats that SOE have that we don't, what are they saying? Are all the successful ( Kills, SPM, life expectancy, etc...) pilots all using the same loadout? If that was the case, then I would be changing the flying mechanics too, reverse maneuver be damned.

So maybe that is what is driving these changes.... one killer configuration that makes all others non-competitive. Food for thought.

[snafus]

Originally Posted by Kerrec

Disclaimer: I'm not a flyboy. I'm just here to play devil's advocate. I also didn't read the entirety of this thread, so if I'm repeating something, I apologize. That said, here's my input:

When I first read about V-Thrust being nerfed, I did the same WTF as most flyboys. I mean, I agree that the reverse maneuver is one of the things that makes PS2 different, and I approve of this. So I walked away from the announcement a bit baffled.

Now more time has gone by. And I've thought, why don't I fly anymore? I mean, I did cert up my Mosquito back in the LOLpod hayday to do A2A combat, but I gave it up pretty quick. Why is that?

Well maybe it was a question of perception. I mean, I upgraded to Dogfighter 3 airfraime, got A2A missiles and upgraded to a Rotary. Badass A2A, or so I thought. Then the reverse maneuver came out and it turns out if you want to be good at dogfighting, you need to use Hover 3 and be good at swapping between First Person and Third Person. That kind of killed it for me...

Having admitted that much, I started to wonder how many ACE pilots (whatever that distinction means in terms of stats) run Hover 3? The stats that SOE have that we don't, what are they saying? Are all the successful ( Kills, SPM, life expectancy, etc...) pilots all using the same loadout? If that was the case, then I would be changing the flying mechanics too, reverse maneuver be damned.

So maybe that is what is driving these changes.... one killer configuration that makes all others non-competitive. Food for thought.

Well on the preferred load out hover is not the standard for all top tier pilots. I know Datablue and myself like to rotate out on Racer and hover ourselves. And the last time I spoke with him on the matter he felt he preferred racer over hover altogether. The myth that Hover is the ace choice of fittings is simply not true, as it does give advantages in aspects of a dogfight, it is far from being the only choice.

[phungus]

Originally Posted by snafus

Well on the preferred load out hover is not the standard for all top tier pilots. I know Datablue and myself like to rotate out on Racer and hover ourselves. And the last time I spoke with him on the matter he felt he preferred racer over hover altogether. The myth that Hover is the ace choice of fittings is simply not true, as it does give advantages in aspects of a dogfight, it is far from being the only choice.

Datablue is probably the best pilot on Connery. To put his level in perspective I find I win almost all 1v1s, even 2v1s, though there are named pilots who I trade with often (I consider these other aces). Then there are a few people who just routinely own me, one of these players is Metalfig. When I flew with Metalfig he told me that Datablue owns him as bad as he owns me... Datablue doesn't need hover because hover's main advantage is increased dodge speed - but he doesn't need to up his evasive abilities since he just beats everyone anyway, for him racer would be superior as it allows him to cover more ground and find more targets, for people who trade with other aces regularly and fly solo alot hover will help them win more of those engagements against high skilled pilots. Basically what hover does is let you strafe faster.

[snafus]

Originally Posted by phungus

Datablue is probably the best pilot on Connery. To put his level in perspective I find I win almost all 1v1s, even 2v1s, though there are named pilots who I trade with often (I consider these other aces). Then there are a few people who just routinely own me, one of these players is Metalfig. When I flew with Metalfig he told me that Datablue owns him as bad as he owns me... Datablue doesn't need hover because hover's main advantage is increased dodge speed - but he doesn't need to up his evasive abilities since he just beats everyone anyway, for him racer would be superior as it allows him to cover more ground and find more targets, for people who trade with other aces regularly and fly solo alot hover will help them win more of those engagements against high skilled pilots. Basically what hover does is let you strafe faster.

Hover is great for dog fights don't get me wrong. But Racer is also amazing for dogfights, you just have to do things a little differently. Instead of purely relying on vertical thrust you try and always keep moving forward your opponent. By stay tight on them they can effectively shake you with the RM. That was the way I flew for months and it worked great. Me using hover is a fairly new setup for me as Racer was always my favorite.

[SolLeks]

I personally prefer dogfighting frame as it helps with my accuracy.

[pixelshader]

Like I said before, on live hover frame is solid. You don't have to have it because the reverse is strong enough to give good mobility on its own. It doesn't affect the strength of the reverse (only racer boosts the reverse on live). It's a good choice on live but not a requirement.

On the pts, hover frame is absolutely mandatory. You can't use the reverse for mobility anymore, you need the normal vthrust power. In addition it now boosts the reverse for some reason, and racer no longer does, just making hover frame even more dominant.

The changes obviously aren't motivated by wanting to create choice in airframes.


Some numbers to better show you what I mean, measuring vthrust power by the top speed achieved moving straight up. On both live and the pts a scythe's normal vthrust is 90, or 125 with hover 3. But, on live your afterburning vthrust ('the reverse') is 280, or 300 with racer 3. This dwarfs the normal vthrust and can effectively be used to compensate for lack of a hover frame. On pts your afterburning vthrust is 125. Or 150 with hover 3.

Pretty funny to note that a reaver with hover 3 has normal vthrust of 145, which is only 5 short of the new nerfed afterburner vthrust speed of the other factions. So the reverse on pts is so weak it only gives as much boost as the reaver's faction perk. Or inversely you could say the reaver's perk is now so strong it is like permanent afterburner.

[maradine]

I'm a huge fan of DF3, but it more or less precludes a Scythe RM under many circumstances. I still run it though - makes tree dancing much easier.